Contents (part 2)

Numbers, we find that some spies were sent over
into the promised land, and that they brought back
grapes and figs and pomegranates, and reported that
the whole land was flowing with milk and honey, but
that the people were strong, that the cities were
walled, and that the nations in the promised land
were mightier than the Hebrews. They reported that
all the people they met were men of a great stature,
that they had seen "the giants, the sons of Anak
"which come of giants," compared with whom the
Israelites were "in their own sight as grasshoppers,
"and so were we in their sight." Entirely discour-
aged by these reports, "all the congregation lifted up
"their voice and cried, and the people wept that
"night * * * and murmured against Moses and
"against Aaron, and said unto them: Would God
"that we had died in the land of Egypt! or would
"God we had died in this wilderness!" Some of
them thought that it would be better to go back,—
that they might as well be slaves in Egypt as to be
food for giants in the promised land. They did not
want their bones crunched between the teeth of the
sons of Anak.

Jehovah got angry again, and said to Moses:
"How long will these people provoke me? * * *

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"I will smite them with pestilence, and disinherit
"them." But Moses said: Lord, if you do this,
the Egyptians will hear of it, and they will say that
you were not able to bring your people into the
promised land. Then he proceeded to flatter him by
telling him how merciful and long-suffering he had
been. Finally, Jehovah concluded to pardon the
people this time, but his pardon depended upon the
violation of his promise, for he said: "They shall
"not see the land which I sware unto their fathers,
"neither shall any of them that provoked me see it;
"but my servant Caleb, * * * him will I bring
"into the land." And Jehovah said to the people:
"Your carcasses shall fall in this wilderness, and all
"that were numbered of you according to your
"whole number, from twenty years old and upward,
"which have murmured against me, ye shall not
"come into the land concerning which I sware to
"make you dwell therein, save Caleb the son of
"Jephunneh, and Joshua the son of Nun. But your
"little ones, which ye said should be a prey, them
"will I bring in, and they shall know the land
"which ye have despised. But as for you, your
"carcasses shall fall in this wilderness. And your
"children shall wander in the wilderness forty

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"years * * * until your carcasses be wasted in
"the wilderness."

And all this because the people were afraid of
giants, compared with whom they were but as grass-
hoppers.

So we find that at one time the people became
exceedingly hungry. They had no flesh to eat.
There were six hundred thousand men of war, and
they had nothing to feed on but manna. They
naturally murmured and complained, and thereupon a
wind from the Lord went forth and brought quails
from the sea, (quails are generally found in the sea,)
"and let them fall by the camp, as it were a day's
"journey on this side, and as it were a day's journey
"on the other side, round about the camp, and as it
"were two cubits high upon the face of the earth.
"And the people stood up all that day, and all that
"night, and all the next day, and they gathered the
"quails. * * * And while the flesh was yet be-
"tween their teeth, ere it was chewed, the wrath of
"the Lord was kindled against the people, and the
"Lord smote the people with a very great plague."

Yet he is slow to anger, long-suffering, merciful
and just.

In the thirty-second chapter of Exodus, is the ac-

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count of the golden calf. It must be borne in mind
that the worship of this calf by the people was before
the Ten Commandments had been given to them.
Christians now insist that these commandments must
have been inspired, because no human being could
have constructed them,—could have conceived of
them.

It seems, according to this account, that Moses had
been up in the mount with God, getting the Ten Com-
mandments, and that while he was there the people
had made the golden calf. When he came down and
saw them, and found what they had done, having in
his hands the two tables, the work of God, he cast
the tables out of his hands, and broke them beneath
the mount. He then took the calf which they had
made, ground it to powder, strewed it in the water,
and made the children of Israel drink of it. And in the
twenty-seventh verse we are told what the Lord did:
"Thus saith the Lord God of Israel: Put every man
"his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate
"to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man
"his brother, and every man his companion, and
"every man his neighbor. And the children of Levi
"did according to the word of Moses; and there fell
"of the people that day about three thousand men."

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The reason for this slaughter is thus given: "For
"Moses had said: Consecrate yourselves to-day to
"the Lord, even every man upon his son, and upon
" his brother, that he may bestow upon you a blessing
"this day."

Now, it must be remembered that there had not
been as yet a promulgation of the commandment
u Thou shalt have no other gods before me." This
was a punishment for the infraction of a law before
the law was known—before the commandment had
been given. Was it cruel, or unjust?

Does the following sound as though spoken by a
God of mercy: "I will make mine arrows drunk
"with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh"?
And yet this is but a small part of the vengeance and
destruction which God threatens to his enemies, as
recorded in the thirty-second chapter of the book of
Deuteronomy.

In the sixty-eighth Psalm is found this merciful
passage: "That thy foot may be dipped in the blood
"of thine enemies, and the tongue of thy dogs in the
"same.

So we find in the eleventh chapter of Joshua the
reason why the Canaanites and other nations made
war upon the Jews. It is as follows: "For it was of

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"the Lord to harden their hearts that they should
"come against Israel in battle, that he might destroy
"them utterly, and that they might have no favor, but
"that he might destroy them."

Read the thirtieth chapter of Exodus and you will
find that God gave to Moses a recipe for making
the oil of holy anointment, and in the thirty-second
verse we find that no one was to make any oil like it
and in the next verse it is declared that whoever
compounded any like it, or whoever put any of it on
a stranger, should be cut off from the Lord's people.

In the same chapter, a recipe is given for per-
fumery, and it is declared that whoever shall make
any like it, or that smells like it, shall suffer death.

In the next chapter, it is decreed that if any one fails
to keep the Sabbath "he shall be surely put to death."

There are in the Pentateuch hundreds and hun-
dreds of passages showing the cruelty of Jehovah.
What could have been more cruel than the flood?
What more heartless than to overwhelm a world?
What more merciless than to cover a shoreless sea
with the corpses of men, women and children?

The Pentateuch is filled with anathemas, with
curses, with words of vengeance, of jealousy, of
hatred, and brutality. By reason of these passages,

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millions of people have plucked from their hearts the
flowers of pity and justified the murder of women
and the assassination of babes.

In the second chapter of Second Kings we find
that the prophet Elisha was on his way to a place
called Bethel, and as he was going, there came forth
little children out of the city and mocked him and
said: "Go up thou bald head; Go up thou bald
"head! And he turned back and looked on them
"and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And
"there came forth two she bears out of the wood and
"tare forty and two children of them."

Of course he obtained his miraculous power from
Jehovah; and there must have been some communi-
cation between Jehovah and the bears. Why did the
bears come? How did they happen to be there?
Here is a prophet of God cursing children in the
name of the Lord, and thereupon these children
are torn in fragments by wild beasts.

This is the mercy of Jehovah; and yet I am told
that the Bible has nothing cruel in it; that it preaches
only mercy, justice, charity, peace; that all hearts
are softened by reading it; that the savage nature of
man is melted into tenderness and pity by it, and that
only the totally depraved can find evil in it.

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And so I might go on, page after page, book after
book, in the Old Testament, and describe the cruelties
committed in accordance with the commands of
Jehovah.

But all the cruelties in the Old Testament are ab-
solute mercies compared with the hell of the New
Testament. In the Old Testament God stops with
the grave. He seems to have been satisfied when he
saw his enemies dead, when he saw their flesh rotting
in the open air, or in the beaks of birds, or in the teeth
of wild beasts. But in the New Testament, ven-
geance does not stop with the grave. It begins there,
and stops never. The enemies of Jehovah are to be
pursued through all the ages of eternity. There is to
be no forgiveness—no cessation, no mercy, nothing
but everlasting pain.

And yet we are told that the author of hell is a
being of infinite mercy.

Second; All intelligent Christians will admit that
there are many passages in the Bible that, if found in
the Koran, they would regard as impure and immoral.

It is not necessary for me to specify the passages,
nor to call the attention of the public to such things.
I am willing to trust the judgment of every honest
reader, and the memory of every biblical student.

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The Old Testament upholds polygamy. That is
infinitely impure. It sanctions concubinage. That
is impure; nothing could or can be worse. Hun-
dreds of things are publicly told that should have re-
mained unsaid. No one is made better by reading
the history of Tamar, or the biography of Lot, or
the memoirs of Noah, of Dinah, of Sarah and
Abraham, or of Jacob and Leah and Rachel and others
that I do not care to mention. No one is improved
in his morals by reading these things.

All I mean to say is, that the Bible is like other
books produced by other nations in the same stage
of civilization. What one age considers pure, the
next considers impure. What one age may consider
just, the next may look upon as infamous. Civiliza-
tion is a growth. It is continually dying, and continu-
ally being born. Old branches rot and fall, new buds
appear. It is a perpetual twilight, and a perpetual
dawn—the death of the old, and the birth of the new.

I do not say, throw away the Bible because there
are some foolish passages in it, but I say, throw away
the foolish passages. Don't throw away wisdom
because it is found in company with folly; but do not
say that folly is wisdom, because it is found in its
company. All that is true in the Bible is true whether

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it is inspired or not. All that is true did not need to
be inspired. Only that which is not true needs the
assistance of miracles and wonders. I read the Bible
as I read other books. What I believe to be good,
I admit is good; what I think is bad, I say is bad;
what I believe to be true, I say is true, and what I
believe to be false, I denounce as false.

Third. Let us see whether there are any contra-
dictions in the Bible.

A little book has been published, called "Self
"Contradictions of the Bible," by J. P. Mendum, of
The Boston Investigator. I find many of the apparent
contradictions of the Bible noted in this book.

We all know that the Pentateuch is filled with the
commandments of God upon the subject of sacrificing
animals. We know that God declared, again and
again, that the smell of burning flesh was a sweet
savor to him. Chapter after chapter is filled with direc-
tions how to kill the beasts that were set apart for
sacrifices; what to do with their blood, their flesh and
their fat. And yet, in the seventh chapter of Jeremiah,
all this is expressly denied, in the following language:
"For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded
"them in the day that I brought them out of the land
"of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices."

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And in the sixth chapter of Jeremiah, the same
Jehovah says; "Your burnt offerings are not ac-
"ceptable, nor your sacrifices sweet unto me."

In the Psalms, Jehovah derides the idea of
sacrifices, and says: "Will I eat of the flesh of
"bulls, or drink the blood of goats? Offer unto God
"thanksgiving, and pay thy vows unto the Most
"High."

So I find in Isaiah the following: "Bring no more
"vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me;
"the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of as-
"semblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even
"the solemn meeting. Your new moons and your
"appointed feasts my soul hateth; they are a trouble
"to me; I am weary to bear them." "To what
"purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me?
"saith the Lord. I am full of the burnt offerings of
"rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not
"in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.
"When ye come to appear before me, who hath re-
"quired this at your hand?"

So I find in James: "Let no man say when he is
"tempted: I am tempted of God; for God cannot be
"tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man;"
and yet in the twenty-second chapter of Genesis I

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find this: "And it came to pass after these things,
"that God did tempt Abraham."

In Second Samuel we see that he tempted David.
He also tempted Job, and Jeremiah says: "O Lord,
"thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived." To
such an extent was Jeremiah deceived, that in the
fourteenth chapter and eighteenth verse we find him
crying out to the Lord: "Wilt thou be altogether
"unto me as a liar?"

So in Second Thessalonians: "For these things
"God shall send them strong delusions, that they
"should believe a lie."

So in First Kings, twenty-second chapter: "Behold,
"the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all
"these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil
"concerning thee."

So in Ezekiel: "And if the prophet be deceived
"when he hath spoken a thing, I, the Lord, have de-
"ceived that prophet."

So I find: "Thou shalt not bear false witness;"
and in the book of Revelation: "All liars shall have
"their part in the lake which burneth with fire and
"brimstone;" yet in First Kings, twenty-second
chapter, I find the following: "And the Lord said:
"Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and

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"fall at Ramoth-Gilead? And one said on this
"manner, and another said on that manner. And
"there came forth a spirit and stood before the Lord,
"and said: I will persuade him. And the Lord said
"unto him: Wherewith? And he said: I will go
"forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all
"his prophets. And he said: Thou shalt persuade
"him, and prevail also. Go forth, and do so."

In the Old Testament we find contradictory laws
about the same thing, and contradictory accounts of
the same occurrences.

In the twentieth chapter of Exodus we find the first
account of the giving of the Ten Commandments. In
the thirty-fourth chapter another account of the same
transaction is given. These two accounts could not
have been written by the same person. Read them,
and you will be forced to admit that both of them
cannot by any possibility be true. They differ in so
many particulars, and the commandments themselves
are so different, that it is impossible that both can be
true.

So there are two histories of the creation. If you
will read the first and second chapters of Genesis,
you will find two accounts inconsistent with each
other, both of which cannot be true. The first account

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ends with the third verse of the second chapter of
Genesis. By the first account, man and woman were
made at the same time, and made last of all. In the
second account, not to be too critical, all the beasts
of the field were made before Eve was, and Adam
was made before the beasts of the field; whereas in
the first account, God made all the animals before he
made Adam. In the first account there is nothing
about the rib or the bone or the side,—that is only
found in the second account. In the first account,
there is nothing about the Garden of Eden, nothing
about the four rivers, nothing about the mist that
went up from the earth and watered the whole face
of the ground; nothing said about making man from
dust; nothing about God breathing into his nostrils
the breath of life; yet according to the second ac-
count, the Garden of Eden was planted, and all the
animals were made before Eve was formed. It is
impossible to harmonize the two accounts.

So, in the first account, only the word God is
used—"God said so and so,—God did so and so."
In the second account he is called Lord God,—"the
"Lord God formed man,"—"the Lord God caused
"it to rain,"—"the Lord God planted a garden." It
is now admitted that the book of Genesis is made up

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of two stories, and it is very easy to take them apart
and show exactly how they were put together.

So there are two stories of the flood, differing
almost entirely from each other—that is to say, so
contradictory that both cannot be true.

There are two accounts of the manner in which
Saul was made king, and the accounts are inconsistent
with each other.

Scholars now everywhere admit that the copyists
made many changes, pieced out fragments, and made
additions, interpolations, and meaningless repetitions.
It is now generally conceded that the speeches of
Elihu, in Job, were interpolated, and most of the
prophecies were made by persons whose names even

are not known.

The manuscripts of the Old Testament were not
alike. The Greek version differed from the Hebrew,
and there was no generally received text of the Old
Testament until after the beginning of the Christian
era. Marks and points to denote vowels were in-
vented probably in the seventh century after Christ;
and whether these marks and points were put in the
proper places, is still an open question. The Alex-
andrian version, or what is known as the Septuagint,
translated by seventy-two learned Jews assisted by

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miraculous power, about two hundred years before
Christ, could not, it is now said, have been translated
from the Hebrew text that we now have. This can
only be accounted for by supposing that we have a
different Hebrew text. The early Christians adopted
the Septuagint and were satisfied for a time; but so
many errors were found, and so many were scanning
every word in search of something to assist their
peculiar views, that new versions were produced,
and the new versions all differed somewhat from the
Septuagint as well as from each other. These ver-
sions were mostly in Greek. The first Latin Bible
was produced in Africa, and no one has ever found
out which Latin manuscript was original. Many were
produced, and all differed from each other. These
Latin versions were compared with each other and
with the Hebrew, and a new Latin version was made
in the fifth century, and the old ones held their own
for about four hundred years, and no one knows
which version was right. Besides, there were Ethi-
opie, Egyptian, Armenian and several other ver-
sions, all differing from each other as well as from all
others. It was not until the fourteenth century that
the Bible was translated into German, and not until
the fifteenth that Bibles were printed in the principal

253

languages of Europe; and most of these Bibles
differed from each other, and gave rise to endless
disputes and to almost numberless crimes.

No man in the world is learned enough, nor has
he time enough, even if he could live a thousand
years, to find what books belonged to and consti-
tuted the Old Testament. He could not ascertain
the authors of the books, nor when they were written,
nor what they mean. Until a man has sufficient
time to do all this, no one can tell whether he be-
lieves the Bible or not. It is sufficient, however, to
say that the Old Testament is filled with contradic-
tions as to the number of men slain in battle, as to
the number of years certain kings reigned, as to the
number of a woman's children, as to dates of events,
and as to locations of towns and cities.

Besides all this, many of its laws are contradictory,
often commanding and prohibiting the same thing.

The New Testament also is filled with contradic-
tions. The gospels do not even agree upon the
terms of salvation. They do not even agree as to
the gospel of Christ, as to the mission of Christ.
They do not tell the same story regarding the be-
trayal, the crucifixion, the resurrection or the ascen-
sion of Christ. John is the only one that ever heard

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of being "born again." The evangelists do not give
the same account of the same miracles, and the
miracles are not given in the same order. They do
not agree even in the genealogy of Christ.

Fourth. Is the Bible scientific? In my judgment
it is not

It is unscientific to say that this world was "cre-
"ated that the universe was produced by an infinite
being, who had existed an eternity prior to such
"creation." My mind is such that I cannot possibly
conceive of a "creation." Neither can I conceive of
an infinite being who dwelt in infinite space an infi-
nite length of time.

I do not think it is scientific to say that the uni-
verse was made in six days, or that this world is only
about six thousand years old, or that man has only
been upon the earth for about six thousand years.

If the Bible is true, Adam was the first man. The
age of Adam is given, the age of his children, and
the time, according to the Bible, was kept and known
from Adam, so that if the Bible is true, man has only
been in this world about six thousand years. In my
judgment, and in the judgment of every scientific
man whose judgment is worth having or quoting,
man inhabited this earth for thousands of ages prior

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to the creation of Adam. On one point the Bible is
at least certain, and that is, as to the life of Adam.
The genealogy is given, the pedigree is there, and it
is impossible to escape the conclusion that, according
to the Bible, man has only been upon this earth
about six thousand years. There is no chance there
to say "long periods of time," or "geological ages."
There we have the years. And as to the time of the
creation of man, the Bible does not tell the truth.

What is generally called "The Fall of Man" is
unscientific. God could not have made a moral
character for Adam. Even admitting the rest of the
story to be true, Adam certainly had to make char-
acter for himself.

The idea that there never would have been any
disease or death in this world had it not been for the
eating of the forbidden fruit is preposterously unsci-
entific. Admitting that Adam was made only six
thousand years ago, death was in the world millions of
years before that time. The old rocks are filled with re-
mains of what were once living and breathing animals.
Continents were built up with the petrified corpses of
animals. We know, therefore, that death did not enter
the world because of Adam's sin. We know that life
and death are but successive Elinks in an eternal chain.

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So it is unscientific to say that thorns and brambles
were produced by Adam's sin.

It is also unscientific to say that labor was pro-
nounced as a curse upon man. Labor is not a curse.
Labor is a blessing. Idleness is a curse.

It is unscientific to say that the sons of God,
living, we suppose, in heaven, fell in love with the
daughters of men, and that on account of this a
flood was sent upon the earth that covered the
highest mountains.

The whole story of the flood is unscientific, and no
scientific man worthy of the name, believes it.

Neither is the story of the tower of Babel a scien-
tific thing. Does any scientific man believe that
God confounded the language of men for fear they
would succeed in building a tower high enough to
reach to heaven?

It is not scientific to say that angels were in the
habit of walking about the earth, eating veal dressed
with butter and milk, and making bargains about the
destruction of cities.

The story of Lot's wife having been turned into a
pillar of salt is extremely unscientific.

It is unscientific to say that people at one time lived
to be nearly a thousand years of age. The history

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of the world shows that human life is lengthening
instead of shortening.

It is unscientific to say that the infinite God
wrestled with Jacob and got the better of him, put-
ting his thigh out of joint.

It is unscientific to say that God, in the likeness of
a flame of fire, inhabited a bush.

It is unscientific to say that a stick could be
changed into a living snake. Living snakes can not
be made out of sticks. There are not the necessary
elements in a stick to make a snake.

It is not scientific to say that God changed water
into blood. All the elements of blood are not in
water.

It is unscientific to declare that dust was changed
into lice.

It is not scientific to say that God caused a thick
darkness over the land of Egypt, and yet allowed it
to be light in the houses of the Jews.

It is not scientific to say that about seventy people
could, in two hundred and fifteen years increase to
three millions.

It is not scientific to say that an infinitely good
God would destroy innocent people to get revenge
upon a king.

258

It is not scientific to say that slavery was once
right, that polygamy was once a virtue, and that ex-
termination was mercy.

It is not scientific to assert that a being of infinite
power and goodness went into partnership with in-
sects,—granted letters of marque and reprisal to
hornets.

It is unscientific to insist that bread was really
rained from heaven.

It is not scientific to suppose that an infinite being
spent forty days and nights furnishing Moses with plans
and specifications for a tabernacle, an ark, a mercy seat,
cherubs of gold, a table, four rings, some dishes, some
spoons, one candlestick, several bowls, a few knobs,
seven lamps, some snuffers, a pair of tongs, some cur-
tains, a roof for a tent of rams' skins dyed red, a few
boards, an altar with horns, ash pans, basins and flesh
hooks, shovels and pots and sockets of silver and
ouches of gold and pins of brass—for all of which this
God brought with him patterns from heaven.

It is not scientific to say that when a man commits
a sin, he can settle with God by killing a sheep.

It is not scientific to say that a priest, by laying
his hands on the head of a goat, can transfer the sins
of a people to the animal.

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Was it scientific to endeavor to ascertain whether
a woman was virtuous or not, by compelling her to
drink water mixed with dirt from the floor of the
sanctuary?

Is it scientific to say that a dry stick budded,
blossomed, and bore almonds; or that the ashes of a
red heifer mixed with water can cleanse us of sin;
or that a good being gave cities into the hands of the
Jews in consideration of their murdering all the in-
habitants?

Is it scientific to say that an animal saw an angel,
and conversed with a man?

Is it scientific to imagine that thrusting a spear
through the body of a woman ever stayed a plague?

Is it scientific to say that a river cut itself in two
and allowed the lower end to run off?

Is it scientific to assert that seven priests blew
seven rams' horns loud enough to blow down the
walls of a city?

Is it scientific to say that the sun stood still in the
midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down for
about a whole day, and that the moon also stayed?

Is it scientifically probable that an angel of the
Lord devoured unleavened cakes and broth with
fire that came out of the end of a stick, as he sat

260

under an oak tree; or that God made known his
will by letting dew fall on wool without wetting the
ground around it; or that an angel of God appeared
to Manoah in the absence of her husband, and that
this angel afterwards went up in a flame of fire, and
as the result of this visit a child was born whose
strength was in his hair?

Is it scientific to say that the muscle of a man de-
pended upon the length of his locks?

Is it unscientific to deny that water gushed from a
hollow place in a dry bone?

Is it evidence of a thoroughly scientific mind to
believe that one man turned over a house so large
that three thousand people were on its roof?

Is it purely scientific to say that a man was once
fed by the birds of the air, who brought him bread
and meat every morning and evening, and that after-
ward an angel turned cook and prepared two sup-
pers in one night, for the same prophet, who ate
enough to last him forty days and forty nights?

Is it scientific to say that a river divided because
the water had been struck with a cloak; or that a
man actually went to heaven in a chariot of fire
drawn by horses of fire; or that a being of infinite
mercy would destroy children for laughing at a bald-

261

headed prophet; or curse children and childrens
children with leprosy for a father's fault; or that he
made iron float in water; or that when one corpse
touched another it came to life; or that the sun went
backward in heaven so that the shadow on a sun-
dial went back ten degrees, as a sign that a miserable
barbarian king would get well?

Is it scientific to say that the earth not only
stopped in its rotary motion, but absolutely turned
the other way,—that its motion was reversed simply
as a sign to a petty king?

Is it scientific to say that Solomon made gold and
silver at Jerusalem as plentiful as stones, when we
know that there were kings in his day who could
have thrown away the value of the whole of Palestine
without missing the amount?

Is it scientific to say that Solomon exceeded all
the kings of the earth in glory, when his country
was barren, without roads, when his people were
few, without commerce, without the arts, without the
sciences, without education, without luxuries?

According to the Bible, as long as Jehovah attended
to the affairs of the Jews, they had nothing but war,
pestilence and famine; after Jehovah abandoned them,
and the Christians ceased, in a measure, to persecute

262

them, the Jews became the most prosperous of people.
Since Jehovah in his anger cast them away, they have
produced painters, sculptors, scientists, statesmen,
composers, soldiers and philosophers.

It is not scientific to believe that God ever pre-
vented rain, that he ever caused famine, that he ever
sent locusts to devour the wheat and corn, that he
ever relied on pestilence for the government of man-
kind; or that he ever killed children to get even with
their parents.

It is not scientific to believe that the king of Egypt
invaded Palestine with seventy thousand horsemen
and twelve hundred chariots of war. There was not,
at that time, a road in Palestine over which a chariot
could be driven.

It is not scientific to believe that in a battle between
Jeroboam and Abijah, the army of Abijah slew in
one day five hundred thousand chosen men.

It is not scientific to believe that Zerah, the Ethio-
pian, invaded Palestine with a million of men who
were overthrown and destroyed; or that Jehoshaphat
had a standing army of nine hundred and sixty
thousand men.

It is unscientific to believe that Jehovah advertised
for a liar, as is related in Second Chronicles.

263

It is not scientific to believe that fire refused to
burn, or that water refused to wet.

It is not scientific to believe in dreams, in visions,
and in miracles.

It is not scientific to believe that children have
been born without fathers, that the dead have ever
been raised to life, or that people have bodily as-
cended to heaven taking their clothes with them.

It is not scientific to believe in the supernatural.
Science dwells in the realm of fact, in the realm of
demonstration. Science depends upon human ex-
perience, upon observation, upon reason.

It is unscientific to say that an innocent man can
be punished in place of a criminal, and for a criminal,
and that the criminal, on account of such punishment,
can be justified.

It is unscientific to say that a finite sin deserves
infinite punishment.

It is unscientific to believe that devils can inhabit
human beings, or that they can take possession of
swine, or that the devil could bodily take a man, or
the Son of God, and carry him to the pinnacle of a
temple.

In short, the foolish, the unreasonable, the false,
the miraculous and the supernatural are unscientific.

264

Question. Mr. Talmage gives his reason for
accepting the New Testament, and says: "You
"can trace it right out. Jerome and Eusebius in the
"first century, and Origen in the second century,
"gave lists of the writers of the New Testament.
"These lists correspond with our list of the writers
"of the New Testament, showing that precisely as
"we have it, they had it in the third and fourth cen-
"turies. Where did they get it? From Irenæus.
"Where did he get it? From Polycarp. Where did
"Polycarp get it? From Saint John, who was a per-
"sonal associate of Jesus. The line is just as clear
"as anything ever was clear." How do you under-
stand this matter, and has Mr. Talmage stated the
facts?

Answer. Let us examine first the witnesses pro-
duced by Mr. Talmage. We will also call attention
to the great principle laid down by Mr. Talmage for
the examination of evidence,—that where a witness
is found false in one particular, his entire testimony
must be thrown away.

Eusebius was born somewhere about two hundred
and seventy years after Christ. After many vicissi-
tudes he became, it is said, the friend of Constantine.
He made an oration in which he extolled the virtues

265

of this murderer, and had the honor of sitting at the
right hand of the man who had shed the blood of his
wife and son. In the great controversy with regard
to the position that Christ should occupy in the Trinity,
he sided with Arius, "and lent himself to the perse-
"cution of the orthodox with Athanasius." He in-
sisted that Jesus Christ was not the same as God,
and that he was not of equal power and glory. Will
Mr. Talmage admit that his witness told the truth in
this? "He would not even call the Son co-eternal
"with God."

Eusebius must have been an exceedingly truthful
man. He declared that the tracks of Pharaoh's chariots
were in his day visible upon the shores of the Red
Sea; that these tracks had been through all the years
miraculously preserved from the action of wind and
wave, as a supernatural testimony to the fact that
God miraculously overwhelmed Pharaoh and his
hosts.

Eusebius also relates that when Joseph and Mary
arrived in Eygpt they took up their abode in Hermopolis,

a city of Thebæus, in which was the superb
temple of Serapis. When Joseph and Mary entered
the temple, not only the great idol, but all the lesser
idols fell down before him.

266

"It is believed by the learned Dr. Lardner, that
"Eusebius was the one guilty of the forgery in the
"passage found in Josephus concerning Christ. Un-
"blushing falsehoods and literary forgeries of the
"vilest character darkened the pages of his historical
"writings." (Waites History.)

From the same authority I learn that Eusebius
invented an eclipse, and some earthquakes, to agree
with the account of the crucifixion. It is also be-
lieved that Eusebius quoted from works that never
existed, and that he pretended a work had been
written by Porphyry, entitled: "The Philosophy of
"Oracles," and then quoted from it for the purpose
of proving the truth of the Christian religion.

The fact is, Eusebius was utterly destitute of truth.
He believed, as many still believe, that he could
please God by the fabrication of lies.

Irenæus lived somewhere about the end of the
second century. "Very little is known of his early
"history, and the accounts given in various biogra-
"phies are for the most part conjectural." The
writings of Irenæus are known to us principally
through Eusebius, and we know the value of his
testimony.

Now, if we are to take the testimony of Irenæus,

267

why not take it? He says that the ministry of Christ
lasted for twenty years, and that Christ was fifty years
old at the time of his crucifixion. He also insisted
that the "Gospel of Paul" was written by Luke, "a
"statement made to give sanction to the gospel of
"Luke."

Irenæus insisted that there were four gospels, that
there must be, and "he speaks frequently of these
"gospels, and argues that they should be four in
"number, neither more nor less, because there are
"four universal winds, and four quarters of the
"world;" and he might have added: because
donkeys have four legs.

These facts can be found in "The History of the
"Christian Religion to A. D. 200," by Charles B.
Waite,—a book that Mr. Talmage ought to read.

According to Mr. Waite, Irenæus, in the thirty-
third chapter of his fifth book, Adversus Hæreses,
cites from Papias the following sayings of Christ:
"The days will come in which vines shall grow
"which shall have ten thousand branches, and on
"each branch ten thousand twigs, and in each twig
"ten thousand shoots, and in each shoot ten thousand
"clusters, and in every one of the clusters ten
"thousand grapes, and every grape when pressed

268

"will give five and twenty metrets of wine." Also
that "one thousand million pounds of clear, pure, fine
"flour will be produced from one grain of wheat."
Irenæus adds that "these things were borne witness
"to by Papias the hearer of John and the companion
"of Polycarp."

Is it possible that the eternal welfare of a human
being depends upon believing the testimony of Poly-
carp and Irenæus? Are people to be saved or lost
on the reputation of Eusebius? Suppose a man is
firmly convinced that Polycarp knew nothing about
Saint John, and that Saint John knew nothing about
Christ,—what then? Suppose he is convinced that
Eusebius is utterly unworthy of credit,—what then?
Must a man believe statements that he has every
reason to think are false?

The question arises as to the witnesses named by
Mr. Talmage, whether they were competent to decide
as to the truth or falsehood of the gospels. We have
the right to inquire into their mental traits for the
purpose of giving only due weight to what they have
said.

Mr. Bronson C. Keeler is the author of a book
called: "A Short History of the Bible." I avail
myself of a few of the facts he has there collected. I

269

find in this book, that Irenæus, Clement and Origen
believed in the fable of the Phoenix, and insisted that
God produced the bird on purpose to prove the
probability of the resurrection of the body. Some
of the early fathers believed that the hyena changed
its sex every year. Others of them gave as a reason
why good people should eat only animals with a
cloven foot, the fact that righteous people lived not
only in this world, but had expectations in the next.
They also believed that insane people were pos-
sessed by devils; that angels ate manna; that some
angels loved the daughters of men and fell; that the
pains of women in childbirth, and the fact that ser-
pents crawl on their bellies, were proofs that the
account of the fall, as given in Genesis, is true; that
the stag renewed its youth by eating poisonous
snakes; that eclipses and comets were signs of God's
anger; that volcanoes were openings into hell; that
demons blighted apples; that a corpse in a cemetery
moved to make room for another corpse to be placed
beside it. Clement of Alexandria believed that hail
storms, tempests and plagues were caused by demons.
He also believed, with Mr. Talmage, that the events
in the life of Abraham were typical and prophetical
of arithmetic and astronomy.

270

Origen, another of the witnesses of Mr. Talmage,
said that the sun, moon and stars were living crea-
tures, endowed with reason and free will, and occa-
sionally inclined to sin. That they had free will, he
proved by quoting from Job; that they were rational
creatures, he inferred from the fact that they moved.
The sun, moon and stars, according to him, were
"subject to vanity," and he believed that they prayed
to God through his only begotten son.

These intelligent witnesses believed that the blight-
ing of vines and fruit trees, and the disease and de-
struction that came upon animals and men, were all
the work of demons; but that when they had entered
into men, the sign of the cross would drive them out.
They derided the idea that the earth is round, and
one of them said: "About the antipodes also, one
"can neither hear nor speak without laughter. It is
"asserted as something serious that we should be-
"lieve that there are men who have their feet oppo-
"site to ours. The ravings of Anaxagoras are more
"tolerable, who said that snow was black."

Concerning these early fathers, Professor Davidson,
as quoted by Mr. Keeler, uses the following lan-
guage: "Of the three fathers who contributed
"most to the growth of the canon, Irenæus was

271

"credulous and blundering; Tertullian passionate
"and one-sided; and Clement of Alexandria, im-
"bued with the treasures of Greek wisdom, was
"mainly occupied with ecclesiastical ethics. Their
"assertions show both ignorance and exaggeration."
These early fathers relied upon by Mr. Talmage,
quoted from books now regarded as apocryphal—
books that have been thrown away by the church
and are no longer considered as of the slightest
authority. Upon this subject I again quote Mr.
Keeler: "Clement quoted the 'Gospel according to
"'the Hebrews,' which is now thrown away by the
"church; he also quoted from the Sibylline books
"and the Pentateuch in the same sentence. Origen
"frequently cited the Gospel of the Hebrews. Jerome
"did the same, and Clement believed in the 'Gospel
"'according to the Egyptians.' The Shepherd of
"Hermas, a book in high repute in the early church,
"and one which distinctly claims to have been
"inspired, was quoted by Irenæus as Scripture.
"Clement of Alexandria said it was a divine revela-
"tion. Origen said it was divinely inspired, and
"quoted it as Holy Scripture at the same time that
"he cited the Psalms and Epistles of Paul. Jerome
"quoted the 'Wisdom of Jesus, the Son of Sirach,'

272

"as divine Scripture. Origen quotes the 'Wisdom
"of Solomon' as the 'Word of God' and 'the
"'words of Christ himself.' Eusebius of Cæsarea
"cites it as a * Divine Oracle,' and St. Chrysostom
"used it as Scripture. So Eusebius quotes the
"thirteenth chapter of Daniel as Scripture, but as a
"matter of fact, Daniel has not a thirteenth chapter,—
"the church has taken it away. Clement spoke of
"the writer of the fourth book of Esdras as a prophet;
"he thought Baruch as much the word of God as
"any other book, and he quotes it as divine Scripture.
"Clement cites Barnabas as an apostle. Origen
"quotes from the Epistle of Barnabas, calls it 'Holy
" 'Scripture,' and places it on a level with the Psalms
"and the Epistles of Paul; and Clement of Alexan-
"dria believed in the 'Epistle of Barnabas,' and the
"'Revelation, of Peter,' and wrote comments upon
"these holy books."

Nothing can exceed the credulity of the early
fathers, unless it may be their ignorance. They be-
lieved everything that was miraculous. They believed
everything except the truth. Anything that really
happened was considered of no importance by them.
They looked for wonders, miracles, and monstrous
things, and—generally found them. They revelled

273

in the misshapen and the repulsive. They did not
think it wrong to swear falsely in a good cause.
They interpolated, forged, and changed the records to
suit themselves, for the sake of Christ. They quoted
from persons who never wrote. They misrepresented
those who had written, and their evidence is abso-
lutely worthless. They were ignorant, credulous,
mendacious, fanatical, pious, unreasonable, bigoted,
hypocritical, and for the most part, insane. Read the
book of Revelation, and you will agree with me that
nothing that ever emanated from a madhouse can
more than equal it for incoherence. Most of the
writings of the early fathers are of the same kind.

As to Saint John, the real truth is, that we know
nothing certainly of him. We do not know that he
ever lived.

We know nothing certainly of Jesus Christ. We
know nothing of his infancy, nothing of his youth,
and we are not sure that such a person ever existed.

We know nothing of Polycarp. We do not know
where he was born, or where, or how he died. We
know nothing for certain about Irenæus. All the
names quoted by Mr. Talmage as his witnesses
are surrounded by clouds and doubts, by mist and
darkness. We only know that many of their

274

statements are false, and do not know that any of
them are true.

Question. What do you think of the following state-
ment by Mr. Talmage: "Oh, I have to tell you that no
"man ever died for a lie cheerfully and triumphantly"?

Answer. There was a time when men "cheerfully
"and triumphantly died" in defence of the doctrine
of the "real presence" of God in the wafer and wine.
Does Mr. Talmage believe in the doctrine of "tran-
"substantiation"? Yet hundreds have died "cheer-
"fully and triumphantly" for it. Men have died for
the idea that baptism by immersion is the only
scriptural baptism. Did they die for a lie? If not,
is Mr. Talmage a Baptist?

Giordano Bruno was an atheist, yet he perished at
the stake rather than retract his opinions. He did
not expect to be welcomed by angels and by God.
He did not look for a crown of glory. He expected
simply death and eternal extinction. Does the fact
that he died for that belief prove its truth?

Thousands upon thousands have died in defence of
the religion of Mohammed. Was Mohammed an im-
postor? Thousands have welcomed death in defence
of the doctrines of Buddha. Is Buddhism true?

275

So I might make a tour of the world, and of all
ages of human history, and find that millions and
millions have died "cheerfully and triumphantly" in
defence of their opinions. There is not the slightest
truth in Mr. Talmage's statement.

A little while ago, a man shot at the Czar of Russia.
On the day of his execution he was asked if he
wished religious consolation. He replied that he
believed in no religion. What did that prove? It
proved only the man's honesty of opinion. All the
martyrs in the world cannot change, never did
change, a falsehood into a truth, nor a truth into
a falsehood. Martyrdom proves nothing but the
sincerity of the martyr and the cruelty and mean-
ness of his murderers. Thousands and thousands of
people have imagined that they knew things, that
they were certain, and have died rather than retract
their honest beliefs.

Mr. Talmage now says that he knows all about the
Old Testament, that the prophecies were fulfilled,
and yet he does not know when the prophecies were
made—whether they were made before or after the
fact. He does not know whether the destruction of
Babylon was told before it happened, or after. He
knows nothing upon the subject. He does not know

276

who made the pretended prophecies. He does not
know that Isaiah, or Jeremiah, or Habakkuk, or
Hosea ever lived in this world. He does not know
who wrote a single book of the Old Testament. He
knows nothing on the subject. He believes in the
inspiration of the Old Testament because ancient
cities finally fell into decay—were overrun and de-
stroyed by enemies, and he accounts for the fact that
the Jew does not lose his nationality by saying that
the Old Testament is true.

The Jews have been persecuted by the Christians,
and they are still persecuted by them; and Mr. Tal-
mage seems to think that this persecution was a part
of Gods plan, that the Jews might, by persecution,
be prevented from mingling with other nationalities,
and so might stand, through the instrumentality of
perpetual hate and cruelty, the suffering witnesses of
the divine truth of the Bible.

The Jews do not testify to the truth of the Bible,
but to the barbarism and inhumanity of Christians—
to the meanness and hatred of what we are pleased
to call the "civilized world." They testify to the fact
that nothing so hardens the human heart as religion.

There is no prophecy in the Old Testament fore-
telling the coming of Jesus Christ. There is not one

277

word in the Old Testament referring to him in any
way—not one word. The only way to prove this
is to take your Bible, and wherever you find these
words: "That it might be fulfilled," and "which
"was spoken," turn to the Old Testament and
find what was written, and you will see that it had
not the slightest possible reference to the thing re-
counted in the New Testament—not the slightest.

Let us take some of the prophecies of the Bible,
and see how plain they are, and how beautiful they
are. Let us see whether any human being can tell
whether they have ever been fulfilled or not.

Here is a vision of Ezekiel: "I looked, and be-
"hold a whirlwind came out of the north, a great
"cloud, and a fire infolding itself, and a brightness
"was about it, and out of the midst thereof as the
"color of amber, out of the midst of the fire. Also
"out of the midst thereof came the likeness of four
"living creatures. And this was their appearance;
"they had the likeness of a man. And every one
"had four faces, and every one had four wings.
"And their feet were straight feet; and the sole of
"their feet was like the sole of a calf's foot: and they
"sparkled like the color of burnished brass. And
"they had the hands of a man under their wings on

278

"their four sides; and they four had their faces and
"their wings. Their wings were joined one to
"another; they turned not when-they went; they
"went every one straight forward. As for the like-
"ness of their faces, they four had the face of a man,
"and the face of a lion, on the right side: and they
"four had the face of an ox on the left side; they
"four also had the face of an eagle.

"Thus were their faces: and their wings were
"stretched upward; two wings of every one were
"joined one to another, and two covered their bodies.
"And they went every one straight forward: whither
"the spirit was to go, they went; and they turned not
"when they went.

"As for the likeness of the living creatures, their
"appearance was like burning coals of fire, and like
"the appearance of lamps: it went up and down
"among the living creatures; and the fire was bright,
"and out of the fire went forth lightning. And the
"living creatures ran and returned as the appearance
"of a flash of lightning.

"Now as I beheld the living creatures, behold one
"wheel upon the earth by the living creatures, with
"his four faces. The appearance of the wheels and
"their work was like unto the color of a beryl: and

279

"they four had one likeness: and their appearance
"and their work was as it were a wheel in the middle
"of a wheel. When they went, they went upon
"their four sides: and they turned not when they
"went. As for their rings, they were so high that
"they were dreadful; and their rings were full of
"eyes round about them four. And when the living
"creatures went, the wheels went by them: and
"when the living creatures were lifted up from the
"earth, the wheels were lifted up. Whithersoever
"the spirit was to go, they went, thither was their
"spirit to go; and the wheels were lifted up over
"against them: for the spirit of the living creature
"was in the wheels. When those went, these went;
"and when those stood, these stood; and when those
"were lifted up from the earth, the wheels were
"lifted up over against them: for the spirit of the
"living creature was in the wheels. And the like-
"ness of the firmament upon the heads of the living
"creature was as the color of the terrible crystal,
"stretched forth over their heads above. And under
"the firmament were their wings straight, the one
"toward the other; every one had two, which
"covered on this side, and every one had two,
"which covered on that side, their bodies."

280

Is such a vision a prophecy? Is it calculated
to convey the slightest information? If so, what?

So, the following vision of the prophet Daniel is
exceedingly important and instructive:

"Daniel spake and said: I saw in my vision by
"night, and behold, the four winds of the heaven
"strove upon the great sea. And four great beasts
"came up from the sea, diverse one from another.
"The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings:
"I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it
"was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon
"the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to
"it. And behold another beast, a second, like to a
"bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had
"three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of
"it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much
"flesh.

"After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard,
"which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl;
"the beast had also four heads, and dominion was
"given to it.

"After this I saw in the night visions, and behold
"a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong ex-
"ceedingly; and it had great iron teeth; it devoured
"and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with

281

"the feet of it; and it was diverse from all the beasts
"that were before it, and it had ten horns. I con-
"sidered the horns, and, behold, there came up
"among them another little horn, before whom
"there were three of the first horns plucked up by
"the roots: and behold, in this horn were eyes like
"the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great
"things."

I have no doubt that this prophecy has been liter-
ally fulfilled, but I am not at present in condition to
give the time, place, or circumstances.

A few moments ago, my attention was called to
the following extract from The New York Herald of
the thirteenth of March, instant:

"At the Fifth Avenue Baptist Church, Dr. Armi-
"tage took as his text, 'A wheel in the middle of a
"'wheel'—Ezekiel, i., 16. Here, said the preacher,
"are three distinct visions in one—the living crea-
"tures, the moving wheels and the fiery throne. We
"have time only to stop the wheels of this mystic
"chariot of Jehovah, that we may hold holy converse
"with Him who rides upon the wings of the wind.
"In this vision of the prophet we have a minute and
"amplified account of these magnificent symbols or
"hieroglyphics, this wondrous machinery which de-

282

"notes immense attributes and agencies and voli-
"tions, passing their awful and mysterious course of
"power and intelligence in revolution after revolu-
"tion of the emblematical mechanism, in steady and
"harmonious advancement to the object after which
"they are reaching. We are compelled to look
"upon the whole as symbolical of that tender and
"endearing providence of which Jesus spoke when
"He said, 'The very hairs of your head are num-
"* bered.'"

Certainly, an ordinary person, not having been
illuminated by the spirit of prophecy, would never
have even dreamed that there was the slightest re-
ference in Ezekiel's vision to anything like counting
hairs. As a commentator, the Rev. Dr. Armitage
has no equal; and, in my judgment, no rival. He
has placed himself beyond the reach of ridicule. It
is impossible to say anything about his sermon as
laughable as his sermon.

Question. Have you no confidence in any pro-
phecies? Do you take the ground that there never
has been a human being who could predict the
future?

Answer. I admit that a man of average intelli-

283

gence knows that a certain course, when pursued
long enough, will bring national disaster, and it is
perfectly safe to predict the downfall of any and
every country in the world. In my judgment,
nations, like individuals, have an average life.
Every nation is mortal. An immortal nation cannot
be constructed of mortal individuals. A nation has
a reason for existing, and that reason sustains the
same relation to the nation that the acorn does to
the oak. The nation will attain its growth—other
things being equal. It will reach its manhood and
its prime, but it will sink into old age, and at last
must die. Probably, in a few thousand years, men
will be able to calculate the average life of nations,
as they now calculate the average life of persons.
There has been no period since the morning of his-
tory until now, that men did not know of dead and
dying nations. There has always been a national
cemetery. Poland is dead, Turkey is dying. In
every nation are the seeds of dissolution. Not only
nations die, but races of men. A nation is born,
becomes powerful, luxurious, at last grows weak, is
overcome, dies, and another takes its place, In this
way civilization and barbarism, like day and night,
alternate through all of history's years.

284

In every nation there are at least two classes of
men: First, the enthusiastic, the patriotic, who be-
lieve that the nation will live forever,—that its flag
will float while the earth has air; Second, the owls
and ravens and croakers, who are always predicting
disaster, defeat, and death. To the last class belong
the Jeremiahs, Ezekiels, and Isaiahs of the Jews.
They were always predicting the downfall of Jeru-
salem. They revelled in defeat and captivity. They
loved to paint the horrors of famine and war. For
the most part, they were envious, hateful, misan-
thropic and unjust.

There seems to have been a war between church
and state. The prophets were endeavoring to pre-
serve the ecclesiastical power. Every king who would
listen to them, was chosen of God. He instantly
became the model of virtue, and the prophets assured
him that he was in the keeping of Jehovah. But if
the king had a mind of his own, the prophets im-
mediately called down upon him all the curses of
heaven, and predicted the speedy destruction of his
kingdom.

If our own country should be divided, if an empire
should rise upon the ruins of the Republic, it would
be very easy to find that hundreds and thousands of

285

people had foretold that very thing. If you will read
the political speeches of the last twenty-two years,
you will find prophecies to fit any possible future
state of affairs in our country. No matter what
happens, you will find that somebody predicted it.
If the city of London should lose her trade, if the
Parliament house should become the abode of moles
and bats, if "the New Zealander should sit upon the
"ruins of London Bridge," all these things would be
simply the fulfillment of prophecy. The fall of every
nation under the sun has been predicted by hundreds
and thousands of people.

The prophecies of the Old Testament can be made
to fit anything that may happen, or that may not
happen. They will apply to the death of a king, or
to the destruction of a people,—to the loss of com-
merce, or the discovery of a continent. Each pro-
phecy is a jugglery of words, of figures, of symbols,
so put together, so used, so interpreted, that they
can mean anything, everything, or nothing.

Question. Do you see anything "prophetic" in
the fate of the Jewish people themselves? Do you
think that God made the Jewish people wanderers, so
that they might be perpetual witnesses to the truth
of the Scriptures?

286

Answer. I cannot believe that an infinitely good
God would make anybody a wanderer. Neither can
I believe that he would keep millions of people with-
out country and without home, and allow them to be
persecuted for thousands of years, simply that they
might be used as witnesses. Nothing could be more
absurdly cruel than this.

The Christians justify their treatment of the Jews
on the ground that they are simply fulfilling prophecy.
The Jews have suffered because of the horrid story
that their ancestors crucified the Son of God. Chris-
tianity, coming into power, looked with horror upon
the Jews, who denied the truth of the gospel. Each
Jew was regarded as a dangerous witness against
Christianity. The early Christians saw how neces-
sary it was that the people who lived in Jerusalem
at the time of Christ should be convinced that
he was God, and should testify to the miracles he
wrought. Whenever a Jew denied it, the Christian
was filled with malignity and hatred, and immediately
excited the prejudice of other Christians against the
man simply because he was a Jew. They forgot, in
their general hatred, that Mary, the mother of Christ,
was a Jewess; that Christ himself was of Jewish
blood; and with an inconsistency of which, of all

287

religions, Christianity alone could have been guilty,
the Jew became an object of especial hatred and
aversion.

When we remember that Christianity pretends to
be a religion of love and kindness, of charity and for-
giveness, must not every intelligent man be shocked
by the persecution of the Jews? Even now, in learned
and cultivated Germany, the Jew is treated as though
he were a wild beast. The reputation of this great
people has been stained by a persecution spring-
ing only from ignorance and barbarian prejudice.
So in Russia, the Christians are anxious to shed
every drop of Jewish blood, and thousands are to-day
fleeing from their homes to seek a refuge from Chris-
tian hate. And Mr. Talmage believes that all these
persecutions are kept up by the perpetual intervention
of God, in order that the homeless wanderers of the
seed of Abraham may testify to the truth of the Old
and New Testaments. He thinks that every burning
Jewish home sheds light upon the gospel,—that
every gash in Jewish flesh cries out in favor of the
Bible,—that every violated Jewish maiden shows the
interest that God still takes in the preservation of
his Holy Word.

I am endeavoring to do away with religious

288

prejudice. I wish to substitute humanity for super-
stition, the love of our fellow-men, for the fear of
God. In the place of ignorant worship, let us put
good deeds. We should be great enough and grand
enough to know that the rights of the Jew are pre-
cisely the same as our own. We cannot trample
upon their rights, without endangering our own; and
no man who will take liberty from another, is great
enough to enjoy liberty himself.

Day by day Christians are laying the foundation
of future persecution. In every Sunday school little
children are taught that Jews killed the God of this
universe. Their little hearts are filled with hatred
against the Jewish people. They are taught as a
part of the creed to despise the descendants of the
only people with whom God is ever said to have had
any conversation whatever.

When we take into consideration what the Jewish
people have suffered, it is amazing that every one of
them does not hate with all his heart and soul and
strength the entire Christian world. But in spite of
the persecutions they have endured, they are to-day,
where they are permitted to enjoy reasonable liberty,
the most prosperous people on the globe. The idea
that their condition shows, or tends to show, that

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upon them abides the wrath of Jehovah, cannot be
substantiated by the facts.

The Jews to-day control the commerce of the
world. They control the money of the world. It is
for them to say whether nations shall or shall not go
to war. They are the people of whom nations borrow
money. To their offices kings come with their hats
in their hands. Emperors beg them to discount their
notes. Is all this a consequence of the wrath of
God?

We find upon our streets no Jewish beggars. It is
a rare sight to find one of these people standing as
a criminal before a court. They do not fill our alms-
houses, nor our penitentiaries, nor our jails. In-
tellectually and morally they are the equal of any
people. They have become illustrious in every de-
partment of art and science. The old cry against
them is at last perceived to be ignorant. Only a few
years ago, Christians would rob a Jew, strip him of
his possessions, steal his money, declare him an out-
cast, and drive him forth. Then they would point
to him as a fulfillment of prophecy.

If you wish to see the difference between some
Jews and some Christians, compare the addresses of
Felix Adler with the sermons of Mr. Talmage.

290

I cannot convince myself that an infinitely good
and wise God holds a Jewish babe in the cradle of
to-day responsible for the crimes of Caiaphas the
high priest. I hardly think that an infinitely good
being would pursue this little babe through all its life
simply to get revenge on those who died two thou-
sand years ago. An infinite being ought certainly to
know that the child is not to blame; and an infinite
being who does not know this, is not entitled to the
love or adoration of any honest man.

There is a strange inconsistency in what Mr. Tal-
mage says. For instance, he finds great fault with
me because I do not agree with the religious ideas
of my father; and he finds fault equally with the
Jews who do. The Jews who were true to the re-
ligion of their fathers, according to Mr. Talmage,
have been made a by-word and a hissing and a re-
proach among all nations, and only those Jews were
fortunate and blest who abandoned the religion of
their fathers. The real reason for this inconsistency
is this: Mr. Talmage really thinks that a man can
believe as he wishes. He imagines that evidence de-
pends simply upon volition; consequently, he holds
every one responsible for his belief. Being satisfied
that he has the exact truth in this matter, he meas-

291

ures all other people by his standard, and if they
fail by that measurement, he holds them personally
responsible, and believes that his God does the same.
If Mr. Talmage had been born in Turkey, he would
in all probability have been a Mohammedan, and
would now be denouncing some man who had denied
the inspiration of the Koran, as the "champion blas-
"phemer" of Constantinople. Certainly he would
have been, had his parents been Mohammedans;
because, according to his doctrine, he would have
been utterly lacking in respect and love for his father
and mother had he failed to perpetuate their errors.
So, had he been born in Utah, of Mormon parents,
he would now have been a defender of polygamy.
He would not "run the ploughshare of contempt
"through the graves of his parents," by taking the
ground that polygamy is wrong.

I presume that all of Mr. Talmage's forefathers
were not Presbyterians. There must have been
a time when one of his progenitors left the faith of
his father, and joined the Presbyterian Church. Ac-
cording to the reasoning of Mr. Talmage, that particular
progenitor was an exceedingly bad man; but had it
not been for the crime of that bad man, Mr. Talmage
might not now have been on the road to heaven.

292

I hardly think that all the inventors, the thinkers,
the philosophers, the discoverers, dishonored their
parents. Fathers and mothers have been made
immortal by such sons. And yet these sons demon-
strated the errors of their parents. A good father
wishes to be excelled by his children.

SIXTH INTERVIEW.

It is a contradiction in terms and ideas to call
anything a revelation that comes to us at second-
hand, either verbally or in writing. Revelation is
necessarily limited to the first communication—
after this, it is only an account of something
which that person says was a revelation made to
him; and though he may find himself obliged to
believe it, it cannot be incumbent on me to
believe it in the same manner; for it was not a
revelation made to me, and I have only his word
for it that it was made to him.—Thomas Paine.

Question. What do you think of the argu-
ments presented by Mr. Talmage in favor of
the inspiration of the Bible?

Answer. Mr. Talmage takes the ground that
there are more copies of the Bible than of any
other book, and that consequently it must be in-
spired.

It seems to me that this kind of reasoning proves
entirely too much. If the Bible is the inspired word
of God, it was certainly just as true when there was
only one copy, as it is to-day; and the facts con-
tained in it were just as true before they were

296

written, as afterwards. We all know that it is a fact
in human nature, that a man can tell a falsehood so
often that he finally believes it himself; but I never
suspected, until now, that a mistake could be printed
enough times to make it true.

There may have been a time, and probably there
was, when there were more copies of the Koran
than of the Bible. When most Christians were ut-
terly ignorant, thousands of Moors were educated;
and it is well known that the arts and sciences
flourished in Mohammedan countries in a far greater
degree than in Christian. Now, at that time, it may
be that there were more copies of the Koran than of
the Bible. If some enterprising Mohammedan had
only seen the force of such a fact, he might have
established the inspiration of the Koran beyond
a doubt; or, if it had been found by actual count that
the Koran was a little behind, a few years of in-
dustry spent in the multiplication of copies, might
have furnished the evidence of its inspiration.

Is it not simply amazing that a doctor of divinity,
a Presbyterian clergyman, in this day and age, should
seriously rely upon the number of copies of the Bible
to substantiate the inspiration of that book? Is it
possible to conceive of anything more fig-leaflessly

297

absurd? If there is anything at all in this argument,
it is, that all books are true in proportion to the
number of copies that exist. Of course, the same
rule will work with newspapers; so that the news-
paper having the largest circulation can consistently
claim infallibility. Suppose that an exceedingly absurd
statement should appear in The New York Herald,
and some one should denounce it as utterly without
any foundation in fact or probability; what would
Mr. Talmage think if the editor of the Herald, as an
evidence of the truth of the statement, should rely
on the fact that his paper had the largest circulation
of any in the city? One would think that the whole
church had acted upon the theory that a falsehood re-
peated often enough was as good as the truth.

Another evidence brought forward by the reverend
gentleman to prove the inspiration of the Scriptures,
is the assertion that if Congress should undertake to
pass a law to take the Bible from the people, thirty,
millions would rise in defence of that book.

This argument also seems to me to prove too much,
and as a consequence, to prove nothing. If Con-
gress should pass a law prohibiting the reading of
Shakespeare, every American would rise in defence
of his right to read the works of the greatest man

298

this world has known. Still, that would not even
tend to show that Shakespeare was inspired. The
fact is, the American people would not allow Con-
gress to pass a law preventing them from reading
any good book. Such action would not prove the
book to be inspired; it would prove that the American
people believe in liberty.

There are millions of people in Turkey who would
peril their lives in defence of the Koran. A fact like
this does not prove the truth of the Koran; it simply
proves what Mohammedans think of that book, and
what they are willing to do for its preservation.

It can not be too often repeated, that martyrdom
does not prove the truth of the thing for which the
martyr dies; it only proves the sincerity of the martyr
and the cruelty of his murderers. No matter how
many people regard the Bible as inspired,—that fact
furnishes no evidence that it is inspired. Just as many
people have regarded other books as inspired; just as
many millions have been deluded about the inspiration
of books ages and ages before Christianity was born.

The simple belief of one man, or of millions of men,
is no evidence to another. Evidence must be based,
not upon the belief of other people, but upon facts.
A believer may state the facts upon which his belief

299

is founded, and the person to whom he states them
gives them the weight that according to the con-
struction and constitution of his mind he must. But
simple, bare belief is not testimony. We should build
upon facts, not upon beliefs of others, nor upon the
shifting sands of public opinion. So much for this
argument.

The next point made by the reverend gentleman
is, that an infidel cannot be elected to any office in
the United States, in any county, precinct, or ward.

For the sake of the argument, let us admit that this
is true. What does it prove? There was a time
when no Protestant could have been elected to any
office. What did that prove? There was a time
when no Presbyterian could have been chosen to fill
any public station. What did that prove? The
same may be said of the members of each religious
denomination. What does that prove?

Mr. Talmage says that Christianity must be true,
because an infidel cannot be elected to office. Now,
suppose that enough infidels should happen to settle
in one precinct to elect one of their own number to
office; would that prove that Christianity was not
true in that precinct? There was a time when no
man could have been elected to any office, who in-

300

sisted on the rotundity of the earth; what did that
prove? There was a time when no man who denied
the existence of witches, wizards, spooks and devils,
could hold any position of honor; what did that
prove? There was a time when an abolitionist could
not be elected to office in any State in this Union;
what did that prove? There was a time when they
were not allowed to express their honest thoughts;
what does that prove? There was a time when a
Quaker could not have been elected to any office;
there was a time in the history of this country when
but few of them were allowed to live; what does
that prove? Is it necessary, in order to ascertain the
truth of Christianity, to look over the election re-
turns? Is "inspiration" a question to be settled by
the ballot? I admit that it was once, in the first
place, settled that way. I admit that books were
voted in and voted out, and that the Bible was finally
formed in accordance with a vote; but does Mr.
Talmage insist that the question is not still open?
Does he not know, that a fact cannot by any possi-
bility be affected by opinion? We make laws for
the whole people, by the whole people. We agree
that a majority shall rule, but nobody ever pretended
that a question of taste could be settled by an appeal

301

to majorities, or that a question of logic could be
affected by numbers. In the world of thought, each
man is an absolute monarch, each brain is a king-
dom, that cannot be invaded even by the tyranny of
majorities.

No man can avoid the intellectual responsibility of
deciding for himself.

Suppose that the Christian religion had been put
to vote in Jerusalem? Suppose that the doctrine of
the "fall" had been settled in Athens, by an appeal
to the people, would Mr. Talmage have been willing
to abide by their decision? If he settles the inspira-
tion of the Bible by a popular vote, he must settle the
meaning of the Bible by the same means. There are
more Methodists than Presbyterians—why does the
gentleman remain a Presbyterian? There are more
Buddhists than Christians—why does he vote against
majorities? He will remember that Christianity was
once settled by a popular vote—that the divinity of
Christ was submitted to the people, and the people
said: "Crucify him!"

The next, and about the strongest, argument Mr.
Talmage makes is, that I am an infidel because I was
defeated for Governor of Illinois.

When put in plain English, his statement is this:

302

that I was defeated because I was an infidel, and that
I am an infidel because I was defeated. This, I be-
lieve, is called reasoning in a circle. The truth is,
that a good many people did object to me because I
was an infidel, and the probability is, that if I had
denied being an infidel, I might have obtained an
office. The wonderful part is, that any Christian
should deride me because I preferred honor to po-
litical success. He who dishonors himself for the
sake of being honored by others, will find that two
mistakes have been made—one by himself, and the
other, by the people.

I presume that Mr.Talmage really thinks that I was
extremely foolish to avow my real opinions. After
all, men are apt to judge others somewhat by them-
selves. According to him, I made the mistake of
preserving my manhood and losing an office. Now,
if I had in fact been an infidel, and had denied it, for
the sake of position, then I admit that every Christian
might have pointed at me the finger of contempt.
But I was an infidel, and admitted it. Surely, I should
not be held in contempt by Christians for having
made the admission. I was not a believer in the
Bible, and I said so. I was not a Christian, and I said
so. I was not willing to receive the support of any

303

man under a false impression. I thought it better to
be honestly beaten, than to dishonestly succeed.
According to the ethics of Mr. Talmage I made a
mistake, and this mistake is brought forward as
another evidence of the inspiration of the Scriptures.
If I had only been elected Governor of Illinois,—that
is to say, if I had been a successful hypocrite, I might
now be basking in the sunshine of this gentleman's
respect. I preferred to tell the truth—to be an
honest man,—and I have never regretted the course
I pursued.

There are many men now in office who, had they
pursued a nobler course, would be private citizens.
Nominally, they are Christians; actually, they are
nothing; and this is the combination that generally
insures political success.

Mr. Talmage is exceedingly proud of the fact that
Christians will not vote for infidels. In other words,
he does not believe that in our Government the
church has been absolutely divorced from the state.
He believes that it is still the Christian's duty to
make the religious test. Probably he wishes to get
his God into the Constitution. My position is this:

Religion is an individual matter—a something for
each individual to settle for himself, and with which

304

no other human being has any concern, provided the
religion of each human being allows liberty to every
other. When called upon to vote for men to fill the
offices of this country, I do not inquire as to the re-
ligion of the candidates. It is none of my business.
I ask the questions asked by Jefferson: "Is he
"honest; is he capable?" It makes no difference to
me, if he is willing that others should be free, what
creed he may profess. The moment I inquire into his
religious belief, I found a little inquisition of my own;
I repeat, in a small way, the errors of the past, and
reproduce, in so far as I am capable, the infamy of
the ignorant orthodox years.

Mr. Talmage will accept my thanks for his frankness.
I now know what controls a Presbyterian when he
casts his vote. He cares nothing for the capacity,
nothing for the fitness, of the candidate to discharge
the duties of the office to which he aspires; he
simply asks: Is he a Presbyterian, is he a Protestant,
does he believe our creed? and then, no matter how
ignorant he may be, how utterly unfit, he receives the
Presbyterian vote. According to Mr. Talmage, he
would vote for a Catholic who, if he had the power,
would destroy all liberty of conscience, rather than
vote for an infidel who, had he the power, would

305

destroy all the religious tyranny of the world, and
allow every human being to think for himself, and
to worship God, or not, as and how he pleased.

Mr. Talmage makes the serious mistake of placing
the Bible above the laws and Constitution of his
country. He places Jehovah above humanity. Such
men are not entirely safe citizens of any republic.
And yet, I am in favor of giving to such men all the
liberty I ask for myself, trusting to education and the
spirit of progress to overcome any injury they may
do, or seek to do.

When this country was founded, when the Con-
stitution was adopted, the churches agreed to let the
State alone. They agreed that all citizens should have
equal civil rights. Nothing could be more dangerous
to the existence of this Republic than to introduce
religion into politics. The American theory is, that
governments are founded, not by gods, but by men,
and that the right to govern does not come from
God, but "from the consent of the governed." Our
fathers concluded that the people were sufficiently
intelligent to take care of themselves—to make good
laws and to execute them. Prior to that time, all
authority was supposed to come from the clouds.
Kings were set upon thrones by God, and it was the

306

business of the people simply to submit. In all really
civilized countries, that doctrine has been abandoned.
The source of political power is here, not in heaven.
We are willing that those in heaven should control
affairs there; we are willing that the angels should
have a government to suit themselves; but while we
live here, and while our interests are upon this earth,
we propose to make and execute our own laws.

If the doctrine of Mr. Talmage is the true doctrine,
if no man should be voted for unless he is a Christian,
then no man should vote unless he is a Christian. It
will not do to say that sinners may vote, that an infidel
may be the repository of political power, but must not

be voted for. A decent Christian who is not willing
that an infidel should be elected to an office, would
not be willing to be elected to an office by infidel
votes. If infidels are too bad to be voted for, they
are certainly not good enough to vote, and no
Christian should be willing to represent such an
infamous constituency.

If the political theory of Mr. Talmage is carried
out, of course the question will arise in a little while,
What is a Christian? It will then be necessary to
write a creed to be subscribed by every person before
he is fit to vote or to be voted for. This of course

307

must be done by the State, and must be settled,
under our form of government, by a majority vote.
Is Mr. Talmage willing that the question, What is
Christianity? should be so settled? Will he pledge
himself in advance to subscribe to such a creed? Of
course he will not. He will insist that he has the
right to read the Bible for himself, and that he must
be bound by his own conscience. In this he would
be right. If he has the right to read the Bible for
himself, so have I. If he is to be bound by his con-
science, so am I. If he honestly believes the Bible to
be true, he must say so, in order to preserve his man-
hood; and if I honestly believe it to be uninspired,—
filled with mistakes,—I must say so, or lose my man-
hood. How infamous I would be should I endeavor
to deprive him of his vote, or of his right to be voted
for, because he had been true to his conscience! And
how infamous he is to try to deprive me of the right
to vote, or to be voted for, because I am true to my
conscience!

When we were engaged in civil war, did Mr. Tal-
mage object to any man's enlisting in the ranks who
was not a Christian? Was he willing, at that time,
that sinners should vote to keep our flag in heaven?
Was he willing that the "unconverted" should cover

308

the fields of victory with their corpses, that this nation
might not die? At the same time, Mr. Talmage
knew that every "unconverted" soldier killed, went
down to eternal fire. Does Mr. Talmage believe that
it is the duty of a man to fight for a government in
which he has no rights? Is the man who shoulders
his musket in the defence of human freedom good
enough to cast a ballot? There is in the heart of this
priest the safne hatred of real liberty that drew the
sword of persecution, that built dungeons, that forged
chains and made instruments of torture.

Nobody, with the exception of priests, would be
willing to trust the liberties of this country in the
hands of any church. In order to show the political
estimation in which the clergy are held, in order to
show the confidence the people at large have in the
sincerity and wisdom of the clergy, it is sufficient to
state, that no priest, no bishop, could by any possi-
bility be elected President of the United States. No
party could carry that load. A fear would fall upon
the mind and heart of every honest man that this
country was about to drift back to the Middle Ages,
and that the old battles were to be refought. If the
bishop running for President was of the Methodist
Church, every other church would oppose him. If

309

he was a Catholic, the Protestants would as a body
combine against him. Why? The churches have
no confidence in each other. Why? Because they
are acquainted with each other.

As a matter of fact, the infidel has a thousand
times more reason to vote against the Christian,
than the Christian has to vote against the infidel.
The Christian believes in a book superior to the
Constitution—superior to all Constitutions and all
laws. The infidel believes that the Constitution and
laws are superior to any book. He is not controlled
by any power beyond the seas or above the clouds.
He does not receive his orders from Rome, or Sinai.
He receives them from his fellow-citizens, legally and
constitutionally expressed. The Christian believes in
a power greater than man, to which, upon the peril
of eternal pain, he must bow. His allegiance, to say
the best of it, is divided. The Christian puts the for-
tune of his own soul over and above the temporal
welfare of the entire world; the infidel puts the good
of mankind here and now, beyond and over all.

There was a time in New England when only
church members were allowed to vote, and it may be
instructive to state the fact that during that time
Quakers were hanged, women were stripped, tied to

310

carts, and whipped from town to town, and their
babes sold into slavery, or exchanged for rum. Now
in that same country, thousands and thousands of
infidels vote, and yet the laws are nearer just, women
are not whipped and children are not sold.

If all the convicts in all the penitentiaries of the
United States could be transported to some island in
the sea, and there allowed to make a government for
themselves, they would pass better laws than John
Calvin did in Geneva. They would have clearer and
better views of the rights of men, than unconvicted
Christians used to have. I do not say that these
convicts are better people, but I do say that, in my
judgment, they would make better laws. They cer-
tainly could not make worse.

If these convicts were taken from the prisons of
the United States, they would not dream of uniting
church and state. They would have no religious
test. They would allow every man to vote and to be
voted for, no matter what his religious views might
be. They would not dream of whipping Quakers, of
burning Unitarians, of imprisoning or burning Uni-
versalists or infidels. They would allow all the people
to guess for themselves. Some of these convicts, of
course, would believe in the old ideas, and would
insist upon the suppression of free thought. Those
coming from Delaware would probably repeat with
great gusto the opinions of Justice Comegys, and
insist that the whipping-post was the handmaid of
Christianity.

It would be hard to conceive of a much worse
government than that founded by the Puritans.
They took the Bible for the foundation of their
political structure. They copied the laws given to
Moses from Sinai, and the result was one of the
worst governments that ever disgraced this world.
They believed the Old Testament to be inspired.
They believed that Jehovah made laws for all people
and for all time. They had not learned the hypoc-
risy that believes and avoids. They did not say:
This law was once just, but is now unjust; it was
once good, but now it is infamous; it was given by
God once, but now it can only be obeyed by the
devil. They had not reached the height of biblical
exegesis on which we find the modern theologian
perched, and who tells us that Jehovah has reformed.
The Puritans were consistent. They did what people
must do who honestly believe in the inspiration of
the Old Testament. If God gave laws from Sinai
what right have we to repeal them?

312

As people have gained confidence in each other,
they have lost confidence in the sacred Scriptures.
We know now that the Bible can not be used as the
foundation of government. It is capable of too many
meanings. Nobody can find out exactly what it
upholds, what it permits, what it denounces, what it
denies. These things depend upon what part you
read. If it is all true, it upholds everything bad and
denounces everything good, and it also denounces
the bad and upholds the good. Then there are
passages where the good is denounced and the bad
commanded; so that any one can go to the Bible
and find some text, some passage, to uphold anything
he may desire. If he wishes to enslave his fellow-
men, he will find hundreds of passages in his favor.
If he wishes to be a polygamist, he can find his
authority there. If he wishes to make war, to exter-
minate his neighbors, there his warrant can be found.
If, on the other hand, he is oppressed himself, and
wishes to make war upon his king, he can find a
battle-cry. And if the king wishes to put him down,
he can find text for text on the other side. So, too,
upon all questions of reform. The teetotaler goes
there to get his verse, and the moderate drinker
finds within the sacred lids his best excuse.

313

Most intelligent people are now convinced that the
bible is not a guide; that in reading it you must
exercise your reason; that you can neither safely
reject nor accept all; that he who takes one passage
for a staff, trips upon another; that while one text is
a light, another blows it out; that it is such a ming-
ling of rocks and quicksands, such a labyrinth of
clews and snares—so few flowers among so many
nettles and thorns, that it misleads rather than di-
rects, and taken altogether, is a hindrance and not
a help.

Another important point made by Mr. Talmage is,
that if the Bible is thrown away, we will have nothing
left to swear witnesses on, and that consequently the
administration of justice will become impossible.

There was a time when the Bible did not exist, and
if Mr. Talmage is correct, of course justice was im-
possible then, and truth must have been a stranger
to human lips. How can we depend upon the testi-
mony of those who wrote the Bible, as there was no
Bible in existence while they were writing, and con-
sequently there was no way to take their testimony,
and we have no account of their having been sworn
on the Bible after they got it finished. It is extremely
sad to think that all the nations of antiquity were left

314

entirely without the means of eliciting truth. No
wonder that Justice was painted blindfolded.

What perfect fetichism it is, to imagine that a man
will tell the truth simply because he has kissed an
old piece of sheepskin stained with the saliva of all
classes. A farce of this kind adds nothing to the
testimony of an honest man; it simply allows a rogue
to give weight to his false testimony. This is really
the only result that can be accomplished by kissing
the Bible. A desperate villain, for the purpose of
getting revenge, or making money, will gladly go
through the ceremony, and ignorant juries and su-
perstitious judges will be imposed upon. The whole
system of oaths is false, and does harm instead of
good. Let every man walk into court and tell his
story, and let the truth of the story be judged by its
reasonableness, taking into consideration the charac-
ter of the witness, the interest he has, and the posi-
tion he occupies in the controversy, and then let it
be the business of the jury to ascertain the real truth
—to throw away the unreasonable and the impossi-
ble, and make up their verdict only upon what they
believe to be reasonable and true. An honest man
does not need the oath, and a rascal uses it simply
to accomplish his purpose. If the history of courts

315

proved that every man, after kissing the Bible, told
the truth, and that those who failed to kiss it some-
times lied, I should be in favor of swearing all people
on the Bible; but the experience of every lawyer is,
that kissing the Bible is not always the preface of a
true story. It is often the ceremonial embroidery
of a falsehood.

If there is an infinite God who attends to the
affairs of men, it seems to me almost a sacrilege to
publicly appeal to him in every petty trial. If one
will go into any court, and notice the manner in
which oaths are administered,—the utter lack of
solemnity—the matter-of-course air with which the
whole thing is done, he will be convinced that it is a
form of no importance. Mr. Talmage would probably
agree with the judge of whom the following story is
told:

A witness was being sworn. The judge noticed
that he was not holding up his hand. He said to the
clerk: "Let the witness hold up his right hand."
"His right arm was shot off," replied the clerk. "Let
"him hold up his left, then." "That was shot off, too,
"your honor." "Well, then, let him raise one foot;
"no man can be sworn in this court without holding
"something up."

My own opinion is, that if every copy of the Bible
in the world were destroyed, there would be some
way to ascertain the truth in judicial proceedings;
and any other book would do just as well to swear
witnesses upon, or a block in the shape of a book
covered with some kind of calfskin could do equally
well, or just the calfskin would do. Nothing is more
laughable than the performance of this ceremony,
and I have never seen in court one calf kissing the
skin of another, that I did not feel humiliated that
such things were done in the name of Justice.

Mr. Talmage has still another argument in favor
of the preservation of the Bible. He wants to
know what book could take its place on the centre-
table.

I admit that there is much force in this. Suppose
we all admitted the Bible to be an uninspired book,
it could still be kept on the centre-table. It would
be just as true then as it is now. Inspiration can not
add anything to a fact; neither can inspiration make
the immoral moral, the unjust just, or the cruel merci-
ful. If it is a fact that God established human slavery,
that does not prove slavery to be right; it simply
shows that God was wrong. If I have the right to
use my reason in determining whether the Bible is

317

inspired or not, and if in accordance with my reason
I conclude that it is inspired, I have still the right to
use my reason in determining whether the command-
ments of God are good or bad. Now, suppose we
take from the Bible every word upholding slavery,
every passage in favor of polygamy, every verse
commanding soldiers to kill women and children, it
would be just as fit for the centre-table as now. Sup-
pose every impure word was taken from it; suppose
that the history of Tamar was left out, the biography
of Lot, and all other barbarous accounts of a barbarous
people, it would look just as well upon the centre-
table as now.

Suppose that we should become convinced that
the writers of the New Testament were mistaken as
to the eternity of punishment, or that all the passages
now relied upon to prove the existence of perdition
were shown to be interpolations, and were thereupon
expunged, would not the book be dearer still to
every human being with a heart? I would like to
see every good passage in the Bible preserved. I
would like to see, with all these passages from the
Bible, the loftiest sentiments from all other books
that have ever been uttered by men in all ages and
of all races, bound in one volume, and to see that

318

volume, filled with the greatest, the purest and the
best, become the household book.

The average Bible, on the average centre-table, is
about as much used as though it were a solid block.
It is scarcely ever opened, and people who see its
covers every day are unfamiliar with its every page.

I admit that some things have happened some-
what hard to explain, and tending to show that the
Bible is no ordinary book. I heard a story, not long
ago, bearing upon this very subject.

A man was a member of the church, but after a
time, having had bad luck in business affairs, became
somewhat discouraged. Not feeling able to con-
tribute his share to the support of the church, he
ceased going to meeting, and finally became an
average sinner. His bad luck pursued him until he
found himself and his family without even a crust to
eat. At this point, his wife told him that she be-
lieved they were suffering from a visitation of God,
and begged him to restore family worship, and see if
God would not do something for them. Feeling that
he could not possibly make matters worse, he took
the Bible from its resting place on a shelf where
it had quietly slumbered and collected the dust of
many months, and gathered his family about him.

319

He opened the sacred volume, and to his utter as-
tonishment, there, between the divine leaves, was a
ten-dollar bill. He immediately dropped on his
knees. His wife dropped on hers, and the children on
theirs, and with streaming eyes they returned thanks
to God. He rushed to the butcher's and bought
some steak, to the baker's and bought some bread,
to the grocer's and got some eggs and butter and tea,
and joyfully hastened home. The supper was cooked,
it was on the table, grace was said, and every face
was radiant with joy. Just at that happy moment a
knock was heard, the door was opened, and a police-
man entered and arrested the father for passing
counterfeit money.

Mr. Talmage is also convinced that the Bible is
inspired and should be preserved because there is no
other book that à mother could give her son as he
leaves the old home to make his way in the world.

Thousands and thousands of mothers have pre-
sented their sons with Bibles without knowing really
what the book contains. They simply followed the
custom, and the sons as a rule honored the Bible, not
because they knew anything of it, but because it was
a gift from mother. But surely, if all the passages
upholding polygamy were out, the mother would give

320

the book to her son just as readily, and he would re-
ceive it just as joyfully. If there were not one word
in it tending to degrade the mother, the gift would cer-
tainly be as appropriate. The fact that mothers have
presented Bibles to their sons does not prove that the
book is inspired. The most that can be proved by
this fact is that the mothers believed it to be inspired.
It does not even tend to show what the book is,
neither does it tend to establish the truth of one
miracle recorded upon its pages. We cannot believe
that fire refused to burn, simply because the state-
ment happens to be in a book presented to a son by
his mother, and if all the mothers of the entire world
should give Bibles to all their children, this would not
prove that it was once right to murder mothers, or to
enslave mothers, or to sell their babes.

The inspiration of the Bible is not a question of
natural affection. It can not be decided by the love
a mother bears her son. It is a question of fact, to
be substantiated like other facts. If the Turkish
mother should give a copy of the Koran to her
son, I would still have my doubts about the in-
spiration of that book; and if some Turkish soldier
saved his life by having in his pocket a copy of
the Koran that accidentally stopped a bullet just

321

opposite his heart, I should still deny that Mohammed
was a prophet of God.

Nothing can be more childish than to ascribe
mysterious powers to inanimate objects. To imagine
that old rags made into pulp, manufactured into
paper, covered with words, and bound with the skin
of a calf or a sheep, can have any virtues when thus
put together that did not belong to the articles out
of which the book was constructed, is of course
infinitely absurd.

In the days of slavery, negroes used to buy dried
roots of other negroes, and put these roots in their
pockets, so that a whipping would not give them
pain. Kings have bought diamonds to give them
luck. Crosses and scapularies are still worn for the
purpose of affecting the inevitable march of events.
People still imagine that a verse in the Bible can step
in between a cause and its effect; really believe that
an amulet, a charm, the bone of some saint, a piece
of a cross, a little image of the Virgin, a picture of a
priest, will affect the weather, will delay frost, will
prevent disease, will insure safety at sea, and in some
cases prevent hanging. The banditti of Italy have
great confidence in these things, and whenever they
start upon an expedition of theft and plunder, they

322

take images and pictures of saints with them, such
as have been blest by a priest or pope. They pray
sincerely to the Virgin, to give them luck, and see not
the slightest inconsistency in appealing to all the
saints in the calendar to assist them in robbing honest
people.

Edmund About tells a story that illustrates the belief
of the modern Italian. A young man was gambling.
Fortune was against him. In the room was a little
picture representing the Virgin and her child. Before
this picture he crossed himself, and asked the assist-
ance of the child. Again he put down his money
and again lost. Returning to the picture, he told the
child that he had lost all but one piece, that he was
about to hazard that, and made a very urgent request
that he would favor him with divine assistance. He
put down the last piece. He lost. Going to the
picture and shaking his fist at the child, he cried out:
"Miserable bambino, I am glad they crucified you!"

The confidence that one has in an image, in a relic,
in a book, comes from the same source,—fetichism.
To ascribe supernatural virtues to the skin of a snake,
to a picture, or to a bound volume, is intellectually
the same.

Mr. Talmage has still another argument in favor

323

of the inspiration of the Scriptures. He takes the
ground that the Bible must be inspired, because so
many people believe it.

Mr. Talmage should remember that a scientific
fact does not depend upon the vote of numbers;—
it depends simply upon demonstration; it depends
upon intelligence and investigation, not upon an
ignorant multitude; it appeals to the highest, in-
stead of to the lowest. Nothing can be settled
by popular prejudice.

According to Mr. Talmage, there are about three
hundred million Christians in the world. Is this true?
In all countries claiming to be Christian—including
all of civilized Europe, Russia in Asia, and every
country on the Western hemisphere, we have nearly
four hundred millions of people. Mr. Talmage claims
that three hundred millions are Christians. I sup-
pose he means by this, that if all should perish to-
night, about three hundred millions would wake up
in heaven—having lived and died good and consist-
ent Christians.

There are in Russia about eighty millions of people
—how many Christians? I admit that they have re-
cently given more evidence of orthodox Christianity
than formerly. They have been murdering old men;

324

they have thrust daggers into the breasts of women;
they have violated maidens—because they were Jews.
Thousands and thousands are sent each year to the
mines of Siberia, by the Christian government of
Russia. Girls eighteen years of age, for having ex-
pressed a word in favor of human liberty, are to-day
working like beasts of burden, with chains upon
their limbs and with the marks of whips upon
their backs. Russia, of course, is considered by Mr.
Talmage as a Christian country—a country utterly
destitute of liberty—without freedom of the press,
without freedom of speech, where every mouth is
locked and every tongue a prisoner—a country filled
with victims, soldiers, spies, thieves and executioners.
What would Russia be, in the opinion of Mr. Tal-
mage, but for Christianity? How could it be worse,
when assassins are among the best people in it?
The truth is, that the people in Russia, to-day, who
are in favor of human liberty, are not Christians.
The men willing to sacrifice their lives for the good
of others, are not believers in the Christian religion.
The men who wish to break chains are infidels;
the men who make chains are Christians. Every
good and sincere Catholic of the Greek Church
is a bad citizen, an enemy of progress, a foe of

325

human liberty. Yet Mr. Talmage regards Russia
as a Christian country.

The sixteen millions of people in Spain are claimed
as Christians. Spain, that for centuries was the as-
sassin of human rights; Spain, that endeavored to
spread Christianity by flame and fagot; Spain, the
soil where the Inquisition flourished, where bigotry
grew, and where cruelty was worship,—where
murder was prayer. I admit that Spain is a Chris-
tian nation. I admit that infidelity has gained no
foothold beyond the Pyrenees. The Spaniards are
orthodox. They believe in the inspiration of the
Old and New Testaments. They have no doubts
about miracles—no doubts about heaven, no doubts
about hell. I admit that the priests, the highway-
men, the bishops and thieves, are equally true be-
lievers. The man who takes your purse on the
highway, and the priest who forgives the robber,
are alike orthodox.

It gives me pleasure, however, to say that even in
Spain there is a dawn. Some great men, some men
of genius, are protesting against the tyranny of Cath-
olicism. Some men have lost confidence in the
cathedral, and are beginningto ask the State to erect
the schoolhouse. They are beginning to suspect

326

that priests are for the most part impostors and
plunderers.

According to Mr. Talmage, the twenty-eight mil-
lions in Italy are Christians. There the Christian
Church was early established, and the popes are to-
day the successors of St. Peter. For hundreds and
hundreds of years, Italy was the beggar of the world,
and to her, from every land, flowed streams of gold
and silver. The country was covered with convents,
and monasteries, and churches, and cathedrals filled
with monks and nuns. Its roads were crowded with
pilgrims, and its dust was on the feet of the world.
What has Christianity done for Italy—Italy, its soil a
blessing, its sky a smile—Italy, with memories great
enough to kindle the fires of enthusiasm in any
human breast?

Had it not been for a few Freethinkers, for a few
infidels, for such men as Garibaldi and Mazzini, the
heaven of Italy would still have been without a star.

I admit that Italy, with its popes and bandits, with
its superstition and ignorance, with its sanctified
beggars, is a Christian nation; but in a little while,—
in a few days,—when according to the prophecy of
Garibaldi priests, with spades in their hands, will
dig ditches to drain the Pontine marshes; in a little

327

while, when the pope leaves the Vatican, and seeks
the protection of a nation he has denounced,—asking
alms of intended victims; when the nuns shall marry,
and the monasteries shall become factories, and the
whirl of wheels shall take the place of drowsy prayers
—then, and not until then, will Italy be,—not a
Christian nation, but great, prosperous, and free.

In Italy, Giordano Bruno was burned. Some day,
his monument will rise above the cross of Rome.

We have in our day one example,—and so far as I
know, history records no other,—of the resurrection
of a nation. Italy has been called from the grave of
superstition. She is "the first fruits of them that
"slept."

I admit with Mr. Talmage that Portugal is a Chris-
tian country—that she engaged for hundreds of years
in the slave trade, and that she justified the infamous
traffic by passages in the Old Testament. I admit,
also, that she persecuted the Jews in accordance
with the same divine volume. I admit that all the
crime, ignorance, destitution, and superstition in that
country were produced by the Catholic Church. I
also admit that Portugal would be better if it were
Protestant.

Every Catholic is in favor of education enough to

328

change a barbarian into a Catholic; every Protestant
is in favor of education enough to change a Catholic
into a Protestant; but Protestants and Catholics alike
are opposed to education that will lead to any
real philosophy and science. I admit that Portugal
is what it is, on account of the preaching of the
gospel. I admit that Portugal can point with pride
to the triumphs of what she calls civilization within
her borders, and truthfully ascribe the glory to the
church. But in a litde while, when more railroads
are built, when telegraphs connect her people with
the civilized world, a spirit of doubt, of investigation,
will manifest itself in Portugal.

When the people stop counting beads, and go to
the study of mathematics; when they think more of
plows than of prayers for agricultural purposes; when
they find that one fact gives more light to the mind
than a thousand tapers, and that nothing can by any
possibility be more useless than a priest,—then Por-
tugal will begin to cease to be what is called a
Christian nation.

I admit that Austria, with her thirty-seven millions,
is a Christian nation—including her Croats, Hungar-
ians, Servians, and Gypsies. Austria was one of the
assassins of Poland. When we remember that John

329

Sobieski drove the Mohammedans from the gates of
Vienna, and rescued from the hand of the "infidel"
the beleagured city, the propriety of calling Austria a
Christian nation becomes still more apparent. If one
wishes to know exactly how "Christian" Austria is,
let him read the history of Hungary, let him read
the speeches of Kossuth. There is one good thing
about Austria: slowly but surely she is undermining
the church by education. Education is the enemy
of superstition. Universal education does away with
the classes born of the tyranny of ecclesiasticism—
classes founded upon cunning, greed, and brute
strength. Education also tends to do away with
intellectual cowardice. The educated man is his
own priest, his own pope, his own church.

When cunning collects tolls from fear, the church
prospers.

Germany is another Christian nation. Bismarck is
celebrated for his Christian virtues.

Only a little while ago, Bismarck, when a bill was
under consideration for ameliorating the condition
of the Jews, stated publicly that Germany was a
Christian nation, that her business was to extend
and protect the religion of Jesus Christ, and that
being a Christian nation, no laws should be passed

330

ameliorating the condition of the Jews. Certainly a
remark like this could not have been made in any
other than a Christian nation. There is no freedom
of the press, there is no freedom of speech, in Ger-
many. The Chancellor has gone so far as to declare
that the king is not responsible to the people. Ger-
many must be a Christian nation. The king gets his
right to govern, not from his subjects, but from God.
He relies upon the New Testament. He is satisfied
that "the powers that be in Germany are ordained
"of God." He is satisfied that treason against the
German throne is treason against Jehovah. There
are millions of Freethinkers in Germany. They are
not in the majority, otherwise there would be more
liberty in that country. Germany is not an infidel
nation, or speech would be free, and every man
would be allowed to express his honest thoughts.

Wherever I see Liberty in chains, wherever the
expression of opinion is a crime, I know that that
country is not infidel; I know that the people are not
ruled by reason. I also know that the greatest men
of Germany—her Freethinkers, her scientists, her
writers, her philosophers, are, for the most part, in-
fidel. Yet Germany is called a Christian nation, and
ought to be so called until her citizens are free.

331

France is also claimed as a Christian country. This
is not entirely true. France once was thoroughly
Catholic, completely Christian. At the time of the
massacre of Saint Bartholomew, the French were
Christians. Christian France made exiles of the
Huguenots. Christian France for years and years
was the property of the Jesuits. Christian France
was ignorant, cruel, orthodox and infamous. When
France was Christian, witnesses were cross-examined
with instruments of torture.

Now France is not entirely under Catholic control,
and yet she is by far the most prosperous nation in
Europe. I saw, only the other day, a letter from a
Protestant bishop, in which he states that there are
only about a million Protestants in France, and only
four or five millions of Catholics, and admits, in a
very melancholy way, that thirty-four or thirty-five
millions are Freethinkers. The bishop is probably
mistaken in his figures, but France is the best housed,
the best fed, the best clad country in Europe.

Only a little while ago, France was overrun, trampled
into the very earth, by the victorious hosts of Ger-
many, and France purchased her peace with the
savings of centuries. And yet France is now rich and
prosperous and free, and Germany poor, discontented

332

and enslaved. Hundreds and thousands of Germans,
unable to find liberty at home, are coming to the
United States.

I admit that England is a Christian country. Any
doubts upon this point can be dispelled by reading
her history—her career in India, what she has done
in China, her treatment of Ireland, of the American
Colonies, her attitude during our Civil war; all these
things show conclusively that England is a Christian
nation.

Religion has filled Great Britain with war. The
history of the Catholics, of the Episcopalians, of
Cromwell—all the burnings, the maimings, the brand-
ings, the imprisonments, the confiscations, the civil
wars, the bigotry, the crime—show conclusively that
Great Britain has enjoyed to the full the blessings of
"our most holy religion."

Of course, Mr. Talmage claims the United States
as a Christian country. The truth is, our country is
not as Christian as it once was. When heretics were
hanged in New England, when the laws of Virginia
and Maryland provided that the tongue of any man
who denied the doctrine of the Trinity should be
bored with hot iron,, and that for the second offence
he should suffer death, I admit that this country was

333

Christian. When we engaged in the slave trade,
when our flag protected piracy and murder in every

sea, there is not the slightest doubt that the United
States was a Christian country. When we believed
in slavery, and when we deliberately stole the labor
of four millions of people; when we sold women
and babes, and when the people of the North
enacted a law by virtue of which every Northern
man was bound to turn hound and pursue a human
being who was endeavoring to regain his liberty, I
admit that the United States was a Christian nation.
I admit that all these things were upheld by the Bible
—that the slave trader was justified by the Old Testa-
ment, that the bloodhound was a kind of missionary
in disguise, that the auction block was an altar, the
slave pen a kind of church, and that the whipping-
post was considered almost as sacred as the cross.
At that time, our country was a Christian nation.

I heard Frederick Douglass say that he lectured
against slavery for twenty years before the doors
of a single church were opened to him. In New
England, hundreds of ministers were driven from
their pulpits because they preached against the
crime of human slavery. At that time, this country
was a Christian nation.

334

Only a few years ago, any man speaking in favor
of the rights of man, endeavoring to break a chain
from a human limb, was in danger of being mobbed
by the Christians of this country. I admit that Dela-
ware is still a Christian State. I heard a story about
that State the other day.

About fifty years ago, an old Revolutionary soldier
applied for a pension. He was asked his age, and he
replied that he was fifty years old. He was told that
if that was his age, he could not have been in the
Revolutionary War, and consequently was not en-
titled to any pension. He insisted, however, that he
was only fifty years old. Again they told him that
there must be some mistake. He was so wrinkled,
so bowed, had so many marks of age, that he must
certainly be more than fifty years old. "Well," said
the old man, "if I must explain, I will: I lived forty
"years in Delaware; but I never counted that time,
"and I hope God won't."

The fact is, we have grown less and less Christian
every year from 1620 until now, and the fact is that
we have grown more and more civilized, more and
more charitable, nearer and nearer just.

Mr. Talmage speaks as though all the people in
what he calls the civilized world were Christians. Ad-

335

mitting this to be true, I find that in these countries
millions of men are educated, trained and drilled to
kill their fellow Christians. I find Europe covered
with forts to protect Christians from Christians, and
the seas filled with men-of-war for the purpose of
ravaging the coasts and destroying the cities of Chris-
tian nations. These countries are filled with prisons,
with workhouses, with jails and with toiling, ignorant
and suffering millions. I find that Christians have
invented most of the instruments of death, that
Christians are the greatest soldiers, fighters, de-
stroyers. I find that every Christian country is taxed
to its utmost to support these soldiers; that every
Christian nation is now groaning beneath the grievous
burden of monstrous debt, and that nearly all these
debts were contracted in waging war. These bonds,
these millions, these almost incalculable amounts,
were given to pay for shot and shell, for rifle and
torpedo, for men-of-war, for forts and arsenals, and
all the devilish enginery of death. I find that each
of these nations prays to God to assist it as against
all others; and when one nation has overrun, ravaged
and pillaged another, it immediately returns thanks
to the Almighty, and the ravaged and pillaged kneel
and thank God that it is no worse.

336

Mr. Talmage is welcome to all the evidence he can
find in the history of what he is pleased to call the
civilized nations of the world, tending to show the
inspiration of the Bible.

And right here it may be well enough to say again,
that the question of inspiration can not be settled by
the votes of the superstitious millions. It can not be
affected by numbers. It must be decided by each
human being for himself. If every man in this world,
with one exception, believed the Bible to be the in-
spired word of God, the man who was the exception
could not lose his right to think, to investigate, and to
judge for himself.

Question. You do not think, then, that any of the
arguments brought forward by Mr. Talmage for the
purpose of establishing the inspiration of the Bible,
are of any weight whatever?

Answer. I do not. I do not see how it is possible
to make poorer, weaker or better arguments than he
has made.

Of course, there can be no "evidence" of the in-
spiration of the Scriptures. What is "inspiration"?
Did God use the prophets simply as instruments?
Did he put his thoughts in their minds, and use their

337

hands to make a record? Probably few Christians
will agree as to what they mean by "inspiration."
The general idea is, that the minds of the writers of
the books of the Bible were controlled by the divine
will in such a way that they expressed, independently
of their own opinions, the thought of God. I believe it
is admitted that God did not choose the exact words,
and is not responsible for the punctuation or syntax.
It is hard to give any reason for claiming more for
the Bible than is claimed by those who wrote it.
There is no claim of "inspiration" made by the writer
of First and Second Kings. Not one word about the
author having been "inspired" is found in the book
of Job, or in Ruth, or in Chronicles, or in the Psalms,
or Ecclesiastes, or in Solomon's Song, and nothing is
said about the author of the book of Esther having
been "inspired." Christians now say that Matthew,
Mark, Luke and John were "inspired" to write the
four gospels, and yet neither Mark, nor Luke, nor
John, nor Matthew claims to have been "inspired."
If they were "inspired," certainly they should have
stated that fact. The very first thing stated in each
of the gospels should have been a declaration by the
writer that he had been "inspired," and that he was
about to write the book under the guidance of God,

338

and at the conclusion of each gospel there should
have been a solemn statement that the writer had
put down nothing of himself, but had in all things
followed the direction and guidance of the divine
will. The church now endeavors to establish the
inspiration of the Bible by force, by social ostracism,
and by attacking the reputation of every man who
denies or doubts. In all Christian countries, they
begin with the child in the cradle. Each infant is
told by its mother, by its father, or by some of its
relatives, that "the Bible is an inspired book." This
pretended fact, by repetition "in season and out of
"season," is finally burned and branded into the
brain to such a degree that the child of average
intelligence never outgrows the conviction that the
Bible is, in some peculiar sense, an "inspired" book.
The question has to be settled for each generation.
The evidence is not sufficient, and the foundation of
Christianity is perpetually insecure. Beneath this great
religious fabric there is no rock. For eighteen centu-
ries, hundreds and thousands and millions of people
have been endeavoring to establish the fact that the
Scriptures are inspired, and since the dawn of science,
since the first star appeared in the night of the
Middle Ages, until this moment, the number of

339

people who have doubted the fact of inspiration
has steadily increased. These doubts have not been
born of ignorance, they have not been suggested by
the unthinking. They have forced themselves upon
the thoughtful, upon the educated, and now the ver-
dict of the intellectual world is, that the Bible is not
inspired. Notwithstanding the fact that the church
has taken advantage of infancy, has endeavored to
control education, has filled all primers and spelling-
books and readers and text books with superstition—
feeding all minds with the miraculous and super-
natural, the growth toward a belief in the natural
and toward the rejection of the miraculous has been
steady and sturdy since the sixteenth century. There
has been, too, a moral growth, until many passages
in the Bible have become barbarous, inhuman and
infamous. The Bible has remained the same, while
the world has changed. In the light of physical and
moral discovery, "the inspired volume" seems in
many respects absurd. If the same progress is made
in the next, as in the last, century, it is very easy to
predict the place that will then be occupied by the
Bible. By comparing long periods of time, it is easy
to measure the advance of the human race. Com-
pare the average sermon of to-day with the average

340

sermon of one hundred years ago. Compare what
ministers teach to-day with the creeds they profess
to believe, and you will see the immense distance
that even the church has traveled in the last century.

The Christians tell us that scientific men have
made mistakes, and that there is very little certainty
in the domain of human knowledge. This I admit.
The man who thought the world was flat, and who
had a way of accounting for the movement of the
heavenly bodies, had what he was pleased to call a
philosophy. He was, in his way, a geologist and an
astronomer. We admit that he was mistaken; but
if we claimed that the first geologist and the first
astronomer were inspired, it would not do for us to
admit that any advance had been made, or that any
errors of theirs had been corrected. We do not
claim that the first scientists were inspired. We do
not claim that the last are inspired. We admit that
all scientific men are fallible. We admit that they do
not know everything. We insist that they know but
little, and that even in that little which they are sup-
posed to know, there is the possibility of error. The
first geologist said: "The earth is flat." Suppose
that the geologists of to-day should insist that that
man was inspired, and then endeavor to show that

341

the word "flat," in the "Hebrew," did not mean
quite flat, but just a little rounded; what would we
think of their honesty? The first astronomer in-
sisted that the sun and moon and stars revolved
around this earth—that this little earth was the centre
of the entire system. Suppose that the astronomers
of to-day should insist that that astronomer was in-
spired, and should try to explain, and say that he
simply used the language of the common people, and
when he stated that the sun and moon and stars re-
volved around the earth, he merely meant that they
"apparently revolved," and that the earth, in fact,
turned over, would we consider them honest men?
You might as well say that the first painter was in-
spired, or that the first sculptor had the assistance of
God, as to say that the first writer, or the first book-
maker, was divinely inspired. It is more probable
that the modern geologist is inspired than that the an-
cient one was, because the modern geologist is nearer
right. It is more probable that William Lloyd Gar-
rison was inspired upon the question of slavery than
that Moses was. It is more probable that the author
of the Declaration of Independence spoke by divine
authority than that the author of the Pentateuch did.
In other words, if there can be any evidence of

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"inspiration," it must lie in the fact of doing or
saying the best possible thing that could have been
done or said at that time or upon that subject.

To make myself clear: The only possible evidence
of "inspiration" would be perfection—a perfection ex-
celling anything that man unaided had ever attained.
An "inspired" book should excel all other books; an
inspired statue should be the best in this world; an in-
spired painting should be beyond all others. If the Bible
has been improved in any particular, it was not, in that
particular, ''inspired." If slavery is wrong, the Bible is
not inspired. If polygamy is vile and loathsome, the
Bible is not inspired. If wars of extermination are cruel
and heartless, the Bible is not "inspired." If there is
within that book a contradiction of any natural fact; if
there is one ignorant falsehood, if there is one mistake,
then it is not "inspired." I do not mean mistakes that
have grown out of translations; but if there was in
the original manuscript one mistake, then it is not
"inspired." I do not demand a miracle; I do not
demand a knowledge of the future; I simply demand
an absolute knowledge of the past. I demand an ab-
solute knowledge of the then present; I demand a
knowledge of the constitution of the human mind—
of the facts in nature, and that is all I demand.

343

Question. If I understand you, you think that all
political power should come from the people; do you
not believe in any "special providence," and do you
take the ground that God does not interest himself
in the affairs of nations and individuals?

Answer. The Christian idea is that God made the
world, and made certain laws for the government of
matter and mind, and that he never interferes except
upon special occasions, when the ordinary laws fail to
work out the desired end. Their notion is, that the
Lord now and then stops the horses simply to show
that he is driving. It seems to me that if an infinitely
wise being made the world, he must have made it
the best possible; and that if he made laws for the
government of matter and mind, he must have made
the best possible laws. If this is true, not one of
these laws can be violated without producing a posi-
tive injury. It does not seem probable that infinite
wisdom would violate a law that infinite wisdom had
made.

Most ministers insist that God now and then in-
terferes in the affairs of this world; that he has not
interfered as much lately as he did formerly. When
the world was comparatively new, it required alto-
gether more tinkering and fixing than at present.

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Things are at last in a reasonably good condition,
and consequently a great amount of interference is
not necessary. In old times it was found necessary fre-
quently to raise the dead, to change the nature of fire
and water, to punish people with plagues and famine,
to destroy cities by storms of fire and brimstone, to
change women into salt, to cast hailstones upon
heathen, to interfere with the movements of our
planetary system, to stop the earth not only, but
sometimes to make it turn the other way, to arrest
the moon, and to make water stand up like a wall.
Now and then, rivers were divided by striking them
with a coat, and people were taken to heaven in
chariots of fire. These miracles, in addition to curing
the sick, the halt, the deaf and blind, were in former
times found necessary, but since the "apostolic age,"
nothing of the kind has been resorted to except in
Catholic countries. Since the death of the last
apostle, God has appeared only to members of the
Catholic Church, and all modern miracles have been
performed for the benefit of Catholicism. There is
no authentic account of the Virgin Mary having ever
appeared to a Protestant. The bones of Protestant
saints have never cured a solitary disease. Protest-
ants now say that the testimony of the Catholics can

345

not be relied upon, and yet, the authenticity of every
book in the New Testament was established by Cath-
olic testimony. Some few miracles were performed
in Scotland, and in fact in England and the United
States, but they were so small that they are hardly
worth mentioning. Now and then, a man was struck
dead for taking the name of the Lord in vain. Now
and then, people were drowned who were found in
boats on Sunday. Whenever anybody was about to
commit murder, God has not interfered—the reason
being that he gave man free-will, and expects to hold
him accountable in another world, and there is no
exception to this free-will doctrine, but in cases
where men swear or violate the Sabbath. They are
allowed to commit all other crimes without any in-
terference on the part of the Lord.

My own opinion is, that the clergy found it neces-
sary to preserve the Sabbath for their own uses, and
for that reason endeavored to impress the people
with the enormity of its violation, and for that purpose
gave instances of people being drowned and suddenly
struck dead for working or amusing themselves on that
day. The clergy have objected to any other places of
amusement except their own, being opened on that
day. They wished to compel people either to go to

346

church or stay at home. They have also known
that profanity tended to do away with the feelings
of awe they wished to cultivate, and for that reason
they have insisted that swearing was one of the most
terrible of crimes, exciting above all others the wrath
of God.

There was a time when people fell dead for having
spoken disrespectfully to a priest. The priest at that
time pretended to be the visible representative of
God, and as such, entitled to a degree of reverence
amounting almost to worship. Several cases are
given in the ecclesiastical history of Scotland where
men were deprived of speech for having spoken
rudely to a parson.

These stories were calculated to increase the im-
portance of the clergy and to convince people that
they were under the special care of the Deity. The
story about the bears devouring the little children
was told in the first place, and has been repeated
since, simply to protect ministers from the laughter
of children. There ought to be carved on each side
of every pulpit a bear with fragments of children in
its mouth, as this animal has done so much to protect
the dignity of the clergy.

Besides the protection of ministers, the drowning

347

of breakers of the Sabbath, and striking a few people
dead for using profane language, I think there is no
evidence of any providential interference in the affairs
of this world in what may be called modern times.
Ministers have endeavored to show that great calam-
ities have been brought upon nations and cities as a
punishment for the wickedness of the people. They
have insisted that some countries have been visited
with earthquakes because the people had failed to
discharge their religious duties; but as earthquakes
happened in uninhabited countries, and often at sea,
where no one is hurt, most people have concluded
that they are not sent as punishments. They have
insisted that cities have been burned as a punish-
ment, and to show the indignation of the Lord, but
at the same time they have admitted that if the
streets had been wider, the fire departments better
organized, and wooden buildings fewer, the design
of the Lord would have been frustrated.

After reading the history of the world, it is some-
what difficult to find which side the Lord is really on.
He has allowed Catholics to overwhelm and de-
stroy Protestants, and then he has allowed Protestants
to overwhelm and destroy Catholics. He has allowed
Christianity to triumph over Paganism, and he allowed

348

Mohammedans to drive back the hosts of the cross
from the sepulchre of his son. It is curious that this
God would allow the slave trade to go on, and yet
punish the violators of the Sabbath. It is simply
wonderful that he would allow kings to wage cruel
and remorseless war, to sacrifice millions upon the
altar of heartless ambition, and at the same time
strike a man dead for taking his name in vain. It is
wonderful that he allowed slavery to exist for centu-
ries in the United States; that he allows polygamy
now in Utah; that he cares nothing for liberty in
Russia, nothing for free speech in Germany, nothing
for the sorrows of the overworked, underpaid millions
of the world; that he cares nothing for the innocent
languishing in prisons, nothing for the patriots con-
demned to death, nothing for the heart-broken
widows and orphans, nothing for the starving, and
yet has ample time to note a sparrow's fall. If he
would only strike dead the would-be murderers; if
he would only palsy the hands of husbands' uplifted
to strike their wives; if he would render speechless
the cursers of children, he could afford to overlook
the swearers and breakers of his Sabbath.

For one, I am not satisfied with the government
of this world, and I am going to do what little I can

349

to make it better. I want more thought and less
fear, more manhood and less superstition, less prayer
and more help, more education, more reason, more
intellectual hospitality, and above all, and over all,
more liberty and kindness.

Question. Do you think that God, if there be one,
when he saves or damns a man, will take into con-
sideration all the circumstances of the man's life?

Answer. Suppose that two orphan boys, James
and John, are given homes. James is taken into a
Christian family and John into an infidel. James
becomes a Christian, and dies in the faith. John be-
comes an infidel, and dies without faith in Christ.
According to the Christian religion, as commonly
preached, James will go to heaven, and John to hell.

Now, suppose that God knew that if James had
been raised by the infidel family, he would have died
an infidel, and that if John had been raised by the
Christian family, he would have died a Christian.
What then? Recollect that the boys did not choose
the families in which they were placed.

Suppose that a child, cast away upon an island in
which he found plenty of food, grew to manhood;
and suppose that after he had reached mature years,

350

the island was visited by a missionary who taught a
false religion; and suppose that this islander was con-
vinced that he ought to worship a wooden idol; and
suppose, further, that the worship consisted in sacri-
ficing animals; and suppose the islander, actuated
only by what he conceived to be his duty and by
thankfulness, sacrificed a toad every night and every
morning upon the altar of his wooden god; that
when the sky looked black and threatening he sacri-
ficed two toads; that when feeling unwell he sacrificed
three; and suppose that in all this he was honest, that
he really believed that the shedding of toad-blood
would soften the heart of his god toward him? And
suppose that after he had become fully-convinced
of the truth of his religion, a missionary of the
"true religion" should visit the island, and tell the
history of the Jews—unfold the whole scheme of
salvation? And suppose that the islander should
honestly reject the true religion? Suppose he should
say that he had "internal evidence" not only, but
that many miracles had been performed by his god,
in his behalf; that often when the sky was black
with storm, he had sacrificed a toad, and in a few
moments the sun was again visible, the heavens blue,
and without a cloud; that on several occasions, having

351

forgotten at evening to sacrifice his toad, he found
himself unable to sleep—that his conscience smote
him, he had risen, made the sacrifice, returned to his
bed, and in a few moments sunk into a serene and
happy slumber? And suppose, further, that the man
honestly believed that the efficacy of the sacrifice
depended largely on the size of the toad? Now
suppose that in this belief the man had died,—what
then?

It must be remembered that God knew when the
missionary of the false religion went to the island;
and knew that the islander would be convinced of the
truth of the false religion; and he also knew that the
missionary of the true religion could not, by any
possibility, convince the islander of the error of his
way; what then?

If God is infinite, we cannot speak of him as
making efforts, as being tired. We cannot con-
sistently say that one thing is easy to him, and
another thing is hard, providing both are possible.
This being so, why did not God reveal himself to
every human being? Instead of having an inspired
book, why did he not make inspired folks? Instead
of having his commandments put on tables of stone,
why did he not write them on each human brain?

352

Why was not the mind of each man so made that
every religious truth necessary to his salvation was
an axiom?

Do we not know absolutely that man is greatly
influenced by his surroundings? If Mr. Talmage
had been born in Turkey, is it not probable that
he would now be a whirling Dervish? If he had
first seen the light in Central Africa, he might now
have been prostrate before some enormous serpent;
if in India, he might have been a Brahmin, running a
prayer-machine; if in Spain, he would probably have
been a priest, with his beads and holy water. Had
he been born among the North American Indians,
he would speak of the "Great Spirit," and solemnly
smoke the the pipe of peace.

Mr. Talmage teaches that it is the duty of children
to perpetuate the errors of their parents; conse-
quently, the religion of his parents determined his
theology. It is with him not a question of reason,
but of parents; not a question of argument, but of
filial affection. He does not wish to be a philoso-
pher, but an obedient son. Suppose his father had
been a Catholic, and his mother a Protestant,—what
then? Would he show contempt for his mother by
following the path of his father; or would he show

353

disrespect for his father, by accepting the religion of
his mother; or would he have become a Protestant
with Catholic proclivities, or a Catholic with Protest-
ant leanings? Suppose his parents had both been
infidels—what then?

Is it not better for each one to decide honestly for
himself? Admitting that your parents were good and
kind; admitting that they were honest in their views,
why not have the courage to say, that in your opinion,
father and mother were both mistaken? No one can
honor his parents by being a hypocrite, or an intellectu-
al coward. Whoever is absolutely true to himself, is
true to his parents, and true to the whole world. Who-
ever is untrue to himself, is false to all mankind. Re-
ligion must be an individual matter. If there is a God,
and if there is a day of judgment, the church that a man
belongs to will not be tried, but the man will be tried.

It is a fact that the religion of most people was made
for them by others; that they have accepted certain
dogmas, not because they have examined them, but
because they were told that they were true. Most of
the people in the United States, had they been born in
Turkey, would now be Mohammedans, and most of
the Turks, had they been born in Spain, would now
be Catholics.

354

It is almost, if not quite, impossible for a man to
rise entirely above the ideas, views, doctrines and re-
ligions of his tribe or country. No one expects to
find philosophers in Central Africa, or scientists
among the Fejees. No one expects to find philoso-
phers or scientists in any country where the church
has absolute control.

If there is an infinitely good and wise God, of
course he will take into consideration the surround-
ings of every human being. He understands the
philosophy of environment, and of heredity. He
knows exactly the influence of the mother, of all
associates, of all associations. He will also take into
consideration the amount, quality and form of each
brain, and whether the brain was healthy or diseased.
He will take into consideration the strength of the
passions, the weakness of the judgment. He will
know exactly the force of all temptation—what was
resisted. He will take an account of every effort
made in the right direction, and will understand
all the winds and waves and quicksands and shores
and shallows in, upon and around the sea of every
life.

My own opinion is, that if such a being exists, and
all these things are taken into consideration, we will

355

be absolutely amazed to see how small the difference
is between the "good" and the "bad." Certainly
there is no such difference as would justify a being
of infinite wisdom and benevolence in rewarding one
with eternal joy and punishing the other with eternal
pain.

Question. What are the principal reasons that
have satisfied you that the Bible is not an inspired
book?

Answer. The great evils that have afflicted this
world are:

First. Human slavery—where men have bought
and sold their fellow-men—sold babes from mothers,
and have practiced) every conceivable cruelty upon
the helpless.

Second. Polygamy—an institution that destroys
the home, that treats woman as a simple chattel, that
does away with the sanctity of marriage, and with all
that is sacred in love.

Third. Wars of conquest and extermination—
by which nations have been made the food of the
sword.

Fourth. The idea entertained by each nation that
all other nations are destitute of rights—in other

356

words, patriotism founded upon egotism, prejudice,
and love of plunder.

Fifth. Religious persecution.

Sixth. The divine right of kings—an idea that
rests upon the inequality of human rights, and insists
that people should be governed without their con-
sent; that the right of one man to govern another
comes from God, and not from the consent of the
governed. This is caste—one of the most odious
forms of slavery.

Seventh. A belief in malicious supernatural be-
ings—devils, witches, and wizards.

Eighth. A belief in an infinite being who or-
dered, commanded, established and approved all
these evils.

Ninth. The idea that one man can be good for
another, or bad for another—that is to say, that one
can be rewarded for the goodness of another, or
justly punished for the sins of another.

Tenth. The dogma that a finite being can commit
an infinite sin, and thereby incur the eternal dis-
pleasure of an infinitely good being, and be justly
subjected to eternal torment.

My principal objection to the Bible is that it sus-
tains all of these ten evils—that it is the advocate of

357

human slavery, the friend of polygamy; that within
its pages I find the command to wage wars of ex-
termination; that I find also that the Jews were
taught to hate foreigners—to consider all human
beings as inferior to themselves; I also find persecu-
tion commanded as a religious duty; that kings were
seated upon their thrones by the direct act of God,
and that to rebel against a king was rebellion against
God. I object to the Bible also because I find within
its pages the infamous spirit of caste—I see the sons
of Levi set apart as the perpetual beggars and
governors of a people; because I find the air filled
with demons seeking to injure and betray the sons
of men; because this book is the fountain of modern
superstition, the bulwark of tyranny and the fortress
of caste. This book also subverts the idea of justice
by threatening infinite punishment for the sins of a
finite being.

At the same time, I admit—as I always have ad-
mitted—that there are good passages in the Bible—
good laws, good teachings, with now and then a true
line of history. But when it is asserted that every
word was written by inspiration—that a being of in-
finite wisdom and goodness is its author,—then
I raise the standard of revolt.

358

Question. What do you think of the declaration
of Mr. Talmage that the Bible will be read in heaven
throughout all the endless ages of eternity?

Answer. Of course I know but very little as to
what is or will be done in heaven. My knowledge
of that country is somewhat limited, and it may be
possible that the angels will spend most of their time
in turning over the sacred leaves of the Old Testa-
ment. I can not positively deny the statement of the
Reverend Mr. Talmage as I have but very little idea
as to how the angels manage to kill time.

The Reverend Mr. Spurgeon stated in a sermon
that some people wondered what they would do
through all eternity in heaven. He said that, as for
himself, for the first hundred thousand years he
would look at the wound in one of the Savior's
feet, and for the next hundred thousand years he
would look at the wound in his other foot, and
for the next hundred thousand years he would
look at the wound in one of his hands, and for
the next hundred thousand years he would look at
the wound in the other hand, and for the next
hundred thousand years he would look at the wound
in his side.

Surely, nothing could be more delightful than this

359

A man capable of being happy in such employment,
could of course take great delight in reading even
the genealogies of the Old Testament. It is very
easy to see what a glow of joy would naturally over-
spread the face of an angel while reading the history
of the Jewish wars, how the seraphim and cherubim
would clasp their rosy palms in ecstasy over the fate

of Korah and his company, and what laughter would
wake the echoes of the New Jerusalem as some one
told again the story of the children and the bears;
and what happy groups, with folded pinions, would
smilingly listen to the 109th Psalm.

An orthodox "state of mind"

THE TALMAGIAN CATECHISM.

As Mr. Talmage delivered the series of sermons
referred to in these interviews, for the purpose
of furnishing arguments to the young, so that they
might not be misled by the sophistry of modern
infi-delity, I have thought it best to set forth,
for use in Sunday schools, the pith and marrow of
what he has been pleased to say, in the form of

A SHORTER CATECHISM.

Question. Who made you?

Answer. Jehovah, the original Presbyterian.

Question. What else did he make?

Answer. He made the world and all things.

Question. Did he make the world out of nothing?

Answer. No.

Question. What did he make it out of?

Answer. Out of his "omnipotence." Many infidels
have pretended that if God made the universe, and if
there was nothing until he did make it, he had nothing
to make it out of. Of course this is perfectly absurd
when we remember that he always had his "omnipo-
tence and that is, undoubtedly, the material used.

364

Question. Did he create his own "omnipotence"?

Answer. Certainly not, he was always omnipo-
tent.

Question. Then if he always had "omnipotence,"
he did not "create" the material of which the uni-
verse is made; he simply took a portion of his
"omnipotence" and changed it to "universe"?

Answer. Certainly, that is the way I under-
stand it.

Question. Is he still omnipotent, and has he as
much "omnipotence" now as he ever had?

Answer. Well, I suppose he has.

Question. How long did it take God to make the
universe?

Answer. Six "good-whiles."

Question. How long is a "good-while"?

Answer. That will depend upon the future dis-
coveries of geologists. "Good-whiles" are of such
a nature that they can be pulled out, or pushed up;
and it is utterly impossible for any infidel, or scien-
tific geologist, to make any period that a "good-while"
won't fit.

Question. What do you understand by "the
"morning and evening" of a "good-while"?

Answer. Of course the words "morning and

365

"evening" are used figuratively, and mean simply
the beginning and the ending, of each "good-while."

Question. On what day did God make vegetation?

Answer. On the third day.

Question. Was that before the sun was made?

Answer. Yes; a "good-while" before.

Question. How did vegetation grow without sun-
light?

Answer. My own opinion is, that it was either
"nourished by the glare of volcanoes in the moon
or "it may have gotten sufficient light from rivers
"of molten granite;" or, "sufficient light might have
"been emitted by the crystallization of rocks." It
has been suggested that light might have been fur-
nished by fire-flies and phosphorescent bugs and
worms, but this I regard as going too far.

Question. Do you think that light emitted by
rocks would be sufficient to produce trees?

Answer. Yes, with the assistance of the "Aurora
"Borealis, or even the Aurora Australis;" but with
both, most assuredly.

Question. If the light of which you speak was
sufficient, why was the sun made?

Answer. To keep time with.

Question. What did God make man of?

366

Answer. He made man of dust and "omnipo-
"tence."

Question. Did he make a woman at the same
time that he made a man?

Answer. No; he thought at one time to avoid
the necessity of making a woman, and he caused all
the animals to pass before Adam, to see what he
would call them, and to see whether a fit companion
could be found for him. Among them all, not one
suited Adam, and Jehovah immediately saw that he
would have to make an help-meet on purpose.

Question. What was woman made of?

Answer. She was made out of "man's side, out of
his right side," and some more "omnipotence." Infi-
dels say that she was made out of a rib, or a bone, but
that is because they do not understand Hebrew.

Question. What was the object of making woman
out of man's side?

Answer. So that a young man would think more
of a neighbor's girl than of his own uncle or grand-
father.

Question. What did God do with Adam and Eve
after he got them done?

Answer. He put them into a garden to see what
they would do.

367

Question. Do we know where the Garden of Eden
was, and have we ever found any place where a
"river parted and became into four heads"?

Answer. We are not certain where this garden
was, and the river that parted into four heads cannot
at present be found. Infidels have had a great deal
to say about these four rivers, but they will wish
they had even one, one of these days.

Question. What happened to Adam and Eve in
the garden?

Answer. They were tempted by a snake who was
an exceedingly good talker, and who probably came
in walking on the end of his tail. This supposition
is based upon the fact that, as a punishment, he was
condemned to crawl on his belly. Before that time,
of course, he walked upright.

Question. What happened then?

Answer. Our first parents gave way, ate of the
forbidden fruit, and in consequence, disease and
death entered the world. Had it not been for this,
there would have been no death and no disease.
Suicide would have been impossible, and a man
could have been blown into a thousand atoms by
dynamite, and the pieces would immediately have
come together again. Fire would have refused to

368

burn and water to drown; there could have been no
hunger, no thirst; all things would have been equally
healthy.

Question. Do you mean to say that there would
have been no death in the world, either of animals,
insects, or persons?

Answer. Of course.

Question. Do you also think that all briers and
thorns sprang from the same source, and that had
the apple not been eaten, no bush in the world
would have had a thorn, and brambles and thistles
would have been unknown?

Answer. Certainly.

Question. Would there have been no poisonous
plants, no poisonous reptiles?

Answer. No, sir; there would have been none;
there would have been no evil in the world if Adam
and Eve had not partaken of the forbidden fruit.

Question. Was the snake who tempted them to
eat, evil?

Answer. Certainly. '

Question. Was he in the world before the for-
bidden fruit was eaten?

Answer. Of course he was; he tempted them to
eat it

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Question. How, then, do you account for the fact
that, before the forbidden fruit was eaten, an evil
serpent was in the world?

Answer. Perhaps apples had been eaten in other
worlds.

Question. Is it not wonderful that such awful con-
sequences flowed from so small an act?

Answer. It is not for you to reason about it; you
should simply remember that God is omnipotent.
There is but one way to answer these things, and
that is to admit their truth. Nothing so puts the
Infinite out of temper as to see a human being
impudent enough to rely upon his reason. The
moment we rely upon our reason, we abandon God,
and try to take care of ourselves. Whoever relies
entirely upon God, has no need of reason, and
reason has no need of him.

Question. Were our first parents under the im-
mediate protection of an infinite God?

Answer. They were.

Question. Why did he not protect them? Why
did he not warn them of this snake? Why did he
not put them on their guard? Why did he not
make them so sharp, intellectually, that they could
not be deceived? Why did he not destroy that

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snake; or how did he come to make him; what did
he make him for?

Answer. You must remember that, although God
made Adam and Eve perfectly good, still he was very
anxious to test them. He also gave them the power
of choice, knowing at the same time exactly what they
would choose, and knowing that he had made them
so that they must choose in a certain way. A being
of infinite wisdom tries experiments. Knowing ex-
actly what will happen, he wishes to see if it will.

Question. What punishment did God inflict upon
Adam and Eve for the sin of having eaten the for-
bidden fruit?

Answer. He pronounced a curse upon the woman,
saying that in sorrow she should bring forth children,
and that her husband should rule over her; that she,
having tempted her husband, was made his slave;
and through her, all married women have been de-
prived of their natural liberty. On account of the
sin of Adam and Eve, God cursed the ground, saying
that it should bring forth thorns and thistles, and
that man should eat his bread in sorrow, and that he
should eat the herb of the field.

Question. Did he turn them out of the garden
because of their sin?

371

Answer. No. The reason God gave for turning
them out of the garden was: "Behold the man is
"become as one of us, to know good and evil; and
"now, lest he put forth his hand and take of the
"tree of life and eat and live forever, therefore, the
"Lord God sent him forth from the Garden of Eden
"to till the ground from whence he was taken."

Question. If the man had eaten of the tree of life,
would he have lived forever?

Answer. Certainly.

Question. Was he turned out to prevent his
eating?

Answer. He was.

Question. Then the Old Testament tells us how we
lost immortality, not that we are immortal, does it?

Answer. Yes; it tells us how we lost it.

Question. Was God afraid that Adam and Eve
might get back into the garden, and eat of the fruit
of the tree of life?

Answer. I suppose he was, as he placed "cher-
"ubim and a flaming sword which turned every
"way to guard the tree of life."

Question. Has any one ever seen any of these
cherubim?

Answer. Not that I know of.

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Question. Where is the flaming sword now?

Answer. Some angel has it in heaven.

Question. Do you understand that God made
coats of skins, and clothed Adam and Eve when
he turned them out of the garden?

Answer. Yes, sir.

Question. Do you really believe that the infinite
God killed some animals, took their skins from them,
cut out and sewed up clothes for Adam and Eve?

Answer. The Bible says so; we know that he
had patterns for clothes, because he showed some
to Moses on Mount Sinai.

Question. About how long did God continue
to pay particular attention to his children in this
world?

Answer. For about fifteen hundred years; and
some of the people lived to be nearly a thousand
years of age.

Question. Did this God establish any schools or
institutions of learning? Did he establish any church?
Did he ordain any ministers, or did he have any re-
vivals?

Answer. No; he allowed the world to go on
pretty much in its own way. He did not even keep
his own boys at home. They came down and made

373

love to the daughters of men, and finally the world
got exceedingly bad.

Question. What did God do then?

Answer. He made up his mind that he would drown
them. You see they were all totally depraved,—in
every joint and sinew of their bodies, in every drop
of their blood, and in every thought of their brains.

Question. Did he drown them all?

Answer. No, he saved eight, to start with again.

Question. Were these eight persons totally de-
praved?

Answer. Yes.

Question. Why did he not kill them, and start
over again with a perfect pair? Would it not have
been better to have had his flood at first, before he
made anybody, and drowned the snake?

Answer. "God's way are not our ways;" and
besides, you must remember that "a thousand years
"are as one day" with God.

Question. How did God destroy the people?

Answer. By water; it rained forty days and forty
nights, and "the fountains of the great deep were
"broken up."

Question. How deep was the water?

Answer. About five miles.

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Question. How much did it rain each day?

Answer. About eight hundred feet; though the
better opinion now is, that it was a local flood. In-
fidels have raised objections and pressed them to that
degree that most orthodox people admit that the
flood was rather local.

Question. If it was a local flood, why did they put
birds of the air into the ark? Certainly, birds could
have avoided a local flood?

Answer. If you take this away from us, what do
you propose to give us in its place? Some of the
best people of the world have believed this story.
Kind husbands, loving mothers, and earnest patriots
have believed it, and that is sufficient.

Question. At the time God made these people,
did he know that he would have to drown them all?

Answer. Of course he did.

Question. Did he know when he made them that
they would all be failures?

Answer. Of course.

Question. Why, then, did he make them?

Answer. He made them for his own glory, and
no man should disgrace his parents by denying it.

Question. Were the people after the flood just as
bad as they were before?

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Answer. About the same.

Question. Did they try to circumvent God?

Answer. They did.

Question. How?

Answer. They got together for the purpose of build-
ing a tower, the top of which should reach to heaven,
so that they could laugh at any future floods, and go
to heaven at any time they desired.

Question. Did God hear about this?

Answer. He did.

Question. What did he say?

Answer. He said: "Go to; let us go down," and
see what the people are doing; I am satisfied they
will succeed.

Question. How were the people prevented from
succeeding?

Answer. God confounded their language, so that
the mason on top could not cry "mort'!" to the
hod-carrier below; he could not think of the word
to use, to save his life, and the building stopped.

Question. If it had not been for the confusion of
tongues at Babel, do you really think that all the
people in the world would have spoken just the same
language, and would have pronounced every word
precisely the same?

376

Answer. Of course.

Question. If it had not been, then, for the con-
fusion of languages, spelling books, grammars and
dictionaries would have been useless?

Answer. I suppose so.

Question. Do any two people in the whole world
speak the same language, now?

Answer. Of course they don't, and this is one of
the great evidences that God introduced confusion
into the languages. Every error in grammar, every
mistake in spelling, every blunder in pronunciation,
proves the truth of the Babel story.

Question. This being so, this miracle is the best
attested of all?

Answer. I suppose it is.

Question. Do you not think that a confusion of
tongues would bring men together instead of separa-
ting them? Would not a man unable to converse
with his fellow feel weak instead of strong; and
would not people whose language had been con-
founded cling together for mutual support?

Answer. According to nature, yes; according to
theology, no; and these questions must be answered
according to theology. And right here, it may be
well enough to state, that in theology the unnatural

377

is the probable, and the impossible is what has always
happened. If theology were simply natural, anybody
could be a theologian.

Question. Did God ever make any other special
efforts to convert the people, or to reform the world?

Answer. Yes, he destroyed the cities of Sodom
and Gomorrah with a storm of fire and brimstone.

Question. Do you suppose it was really brim-
stone?

Answer. Undoubtedly.

Question. Do you think this brimstone came from
the clouds?

Answer. Let me tell you that you have no right
to examine the Bible in the light of what people are
pleased to call "science." The natural has nothing
to do with the supernatural. Naturally there would
be no brimstone in the clouds, but supernaturally
there might be. God could make brimstone out of
his "omnipotence." We do not know really what
brimstone is, and nobody knows exactly how brim-
stone is made. As a matter of fact, all the brimstone
in the world might have fallen at that time.

Question. Do you think that Lot's wife was
changed into salt?

Answer. Of course she was. A miracle was per-

378

formed. A few centuries ago, the statue of salt made
by changing Lot's wife into that article, was standing.
Christian travelers have seen it.

Question. Why do you think she was changed
into salt?

Answer. For the purpose of keeping the event
fresh in the minds of men.

Question. God having failed to keep people in-
nocent in a garden; having failed to govern them
outside of a garden; having failed to reform them by
water; having failed to produce any good result by a
confusion of tongues; having failed to reform them
with fire and brimstone, what did he then do?

Answer. He concluded that he had no time to
waste on them all, but that he would have to select
one tribe, and turn his entire attention to just a few
folks.

Question. Whom did he select?

Answer. A man by the name of Abram.

Question. What kind of man was Abram?

Answer. If you wish to know, read the twelfth
chapter of Genesis; and if you still have any doubts
as to his character, read the twentieth chapter of the
same book, and you will see that he was a man who
made merchandise of his wife's body. He had had

379

such good fortune in Egypt, that he tried the experi-
ment again on Abimelech.

Question. Did Abraham show any gratitude?

Answer. Yes; he offered to sacrifice his son, to
show his confidence in Jehovah.

Question. What became of Abraham and his
people?

Answer. God took such care of them, that in
about two hundred and fifteen years they were all
slaves in the land of Egypt.

Question. How long did they remain in slavery?

Answer. Two hundred and fifteen years.

Question. Were they the same people that God
had promised to take care of?

Answer. They were.

Question. Was God at that time, in favor of
slavery?

Answer. Not at that time. He was angry at the
Egyptians for enslaving the Jews, but he afterwards
authorized the Jews to enslave other people.

Question. What means did he take to liberate
the Jews?

Answer. He sent his agents to Pharaoh, and de-
manded their freedom; and upon Pharaoh s refusing,
he afflicted the people, who had nothing to do with

380

it, with various plagues,—killed children, and tor-
mented and tortured beasts.

Question. Was such conduct Godlike?

Answer. Certainly. If you have anything against
your neighbor, it is perfectly proper to torture his
horse, or torment his dog. Nothing can be nobler
than this. You see it is much better to injure his
animals than to injure him. To punish animals for
the sins of their owners must be just, or God would
not have done it. Pharaoh insisted on keeping the
people in slavery, and therefore God covered the
bodies of oxen and cows with boils. He also bruised
them to death with hailstones. From this we infer,
that "the loving kindness of God is over all his works."

Question. Do you consider such treatment of ani-
mals consistent with divine mercy?

Answer. Certainly. You know that under the
Mosaic dispensation, when a man did a wrong, he
could settle with God by killing an ox, or a sheep,
or some doves. If the man failed to kill them, of
course God would kill them. It was upon this prin-
ciple that he destroyed the animals of the Egyptians.
They had sinned, and he merely took his pay.

Question. How was it possible, under the old dis-
pensation, to please a being of infinite kindness?

381

Answer. All you had to do was to take an innocent
animal, bring it to the altar, cut its throat, and sprinkle
the altar with its blood. Certain parts of it were to be
given to the butcher as his share, and the rest was to
be burnt on the altar. When God saw an animal thus
butchered, and smelt the warm blood mingled with
the odor of burning flesh, he was pacified, and the
smile of forgiveness shed its light upon his face.
Of course, infidels laugh at these things; but what
can you expect of men who have not been "born
"again"? "The carnal mind is enmity with God."
Question. What else did God do in order to in-
duce Pharaoh to liberate the Jews?

Answer. He had his agents throw down a cane
in the presence of Pharaoh and thereupon Jehovah
changed this cane into a serpent.

Question. Did this convince Pharaoh?

Answer. No; he sent for his own magicians.
Question. What did they do?

Answer. They threw down some canes and they
also were changed into serpents.

Question. Did Jehovah change the canes of the
Egyptian magicians into snakes?

Answer. I suppose he did, as he is the only one
capable of performing such a miracle.

382

Question. If the rod of Aaron was changed into
a serpent in order to convince Pharaoh that God had
sent Aaron and Moses, why did God change the
sticks of the Egyptian magicians into serpents—why
did he discredit his own agents, and render worth-
less their only credentials?

Answer. Well, we cannot explain the conduct of
Jehovah; we are perfectly satisfied that it was for
the best. Even in this age of the world God allows
infidels to overwhelm his chosen people with argu-
ments; he allows them to discover facts that his
ministers can not answer, and yet we are satisfied
that in the end God will give the victory to us. All
these things are tests of faith. It is upon this prin-
ciple that God allows geology to laugh at Genesis,
that he permits astronomy apparently to contradict
his holy word.

Question. What did God do with these people
after Pharaoh allowed them to go?

Answer. Finding that they were not fit to settle
a new country, owing to the fact that when hungry
they longed for food, and sometimes when their lips
were cracked with thirst insisted on having water,
God in his infinite mercy had them marched round
and round, back and forth, through a barren wilder-

383

ness, until all, with the exception of two persons,
died.

Question. Why did he do this?

Answer. Because he had promised these people
that he would take them "to a land flowing with
"milk and honey."

Question. Was God always patient and kind and
merciful toward his children while they were in the
wilderness?

Answer. Yes, he always was merciful and kind
and patient. Infidels have taken the ground that he
visited them with plagues and disease and famine;
that he had them bitten by serpents, and now and
then allowed the ground to swallow a few thousands
of them, and in other ways saw to it that they were
kept as comfortable and happy as was consistent with
good government; but all these things were for their
good; and the fact is, infidels have no real sense of
justice.

Question. How did God happen to treat the Is-
raelites in this way, when he had promised Abraham
that he would take care of his progeny, and when he
had promised the same to the poor wretches while
they were slaves in Egypt?

Answer. Because God is unchangeable in his na-

384

ture, and wished to convince them that every being
should be perfectly faithful to his promise.

Question. Was God driven to madness by the
conduct of his chosen people?

Answer. Almost.

Question. Did he know exactly what they would
do when he chose them?

Answer. Exactly.

Question. Were the Jews guilty of idolatry?

Answer. They were. They worshiped other gods
—gods made of wood and stone.

Question. Is it not wonderful that they were not
convinced of the power of God, by the many mira-
cles wrought in Egypt and in the wilderness?

Answer. Yes, it is very wonderful; but the Jews,
who must have seen bread rained from heaven; who
saw water gush from the rocks and follow them up hill
and down; who noticed that their clothes did not
wear out, and did not even get shiny at the knees,
while the elbows defied the ravages of time, and
their shoes remained perfect for forty years; it is
wonderful that when they saw the ground open
and swallow their comrades; when they saw God
talking face to face with Moses as a man talks with
his friend; after they saw the cloud by day and the

385

pillar of fire by night,—it is absolutely astonishing
that they had more faith in a golden calf that they
made themselves, than in Jehovah.

Question. How is it that the Jews had no confi-
dence in these miracles?

Answer. Because they were there and saw them.

Question. Do you think that it is necessary for
us to believe all the miracles of the Old Testament
in order to be saved?

Answer. The Old Testament is the foundation of
the New. If the Old Testament is not inspired, then
the New is of no value. If the Old Testament is
inspired, all the miracles are true, and we cannot
believe that God would allow any errors, or false
statements, to creep into an inspired volume, and to
be perpetuated through all these years.

Question. Should we believe the miracles, whether
they are reasonable or not?

Answer. Certainly; if they were reasonable, they
would not be miracles. It is their unreasonableness
that appeals to our credulity and our faith. It is im-
possible to have theological faith in anything that
can be demonstrated. It is the office of faith to
believe, not only without evidence, but in spite of
evidence. It is impossible for the carnal mind to

386

believe that Samsons muscle depended upon the
length of his hair. "God has made the wisdom of
"this world foolishness." Neither can the uncon-
verted believe that Elijah stopped at a hotel kept by
ravens. Neither can they believe that a barrel would
in and of itself produce meal, or that an earthen pot
could create oil. But to a Christian, in order that a
widow might feed a preacher, the truth of these
stories is perfectly apparent.

Question. How should we regard the wonderful
stories of the Old Testament?

Answer. They should be looked upon as "types"
and "symbols." They all have a spiritual signifi-
cance. The reason I believe the story of Jonah is,
that Jonah is a type of Christ.

Question. Do you believe the story of Jonah to
be a true account of a literal fact?

Answer. Certainly. You must remember that
Jonah was not swallowed by a whale. God "pre-
"pared a great fish" for that occasion. Neither is it by
any means certain that Jonah was in the belly of
this whale. "He probably stayed in his mouth."
Even if he was in his stomach, it was very easy
for him to defy the ordinary action of gastric juice
by rapidly walking up and down..

387

Question. Do you think that Jonah was really in
the whale's stomach?

Answer. My own opinion is that he stayed in his
mouth. The only objection to this theory is, that it
is more reasonable than the other and requires less
faith. Nothing could be easier than for God to make
a fish large enough to furnish ample room for one
passenger in his mouth. I throw out this suggestion
simply that you may be able to answer the objections
of infidels who are always laughing at this story.

Question. Do you really believe that Elijah went
to heaven in a chariot of fire, drawn by horses of
fire?

Answer. Of course he did.

Question. What was this miracle performed for?

Answer. To convince the people of the power of
God.

Question. Who saw the miracle?

Answer. Nobody but Elisha.

Question. Was he convinced before that time?

Answer. Oh yes; he was one of God's prophets.

Question. Suppose that in these days two men
should leave a town together, and after a while one
of them should come back having on the clothes of
the other, and should account for the fact that he had

388

his friend's clothes by saying that while they were
going along the road together a chariot of fire came
down from heaven drawn by fiery steeds, and there-
upon his friend got into the carriage, threw him his
clothes, and departed,—would you believe it?

Answer. Of course things like that don't happen
in these days; God does not have to rely on wonders
now.

Question. Do you mean that he performs no
miracles at the present day?

Answer. We cannot say that he does not perform
miracles now, but we are not in position to call atten-
tion to any particular one. Of course he supervises
the affairs of nations and men and does whatever in
his judgment is necessary.

Question. Do you think that Samson's strength
depended on the length of his hair?

Answer. The Bible so states, and the Bible is true.
A physiologist might say that a man could not use
the muscle in his hair for lifting purposes, but these
same physiologists could not tell you how you move
a finger, nor how you lift a feather; still, actuated by
the pride of intellect, they insist that the length of a
man's hair could not determine his strength. God
says it did; the physiologist says that it did not; we

389

can not hesitate whom to believe. For the purpose
of avoiding eternal agony I am willing to believe
anything; I am willing to say that strength depends
upon the length of hair, or faith upon the length of
ears. I am perfectly willing to believe that a man
caught three hundred foxes, and put fire brands be-
tween their tails; that he slew thousands with a bone,
and that he made a bee hive out of a lion. I will
believe, if necessary, that when this man's hair was
short he hardly had strength enough to stand, and
that when it was long, he could carry away the gates
of a city, or overthrow a temple filled with people.
If the infidel is right, I will lose nothing by believing,
but if he is wrong, I shall gain an eternity of joy.
If God did not intend that we should believe these
stories, he never would have told them, and why
should a man put his soul in peril by trying to dis-
prove one of the statements of the Lord?

Question. Suppose it should turn out that some
of these miracles depend upon mistranslations of the
original Hebrew, should we still believe them?

Answer. The safe side is the best side. It is
far better to err on the side of belief, than on the
side of infidelity. God does not threaten anybody
with eternal punishment for believing too much.

390

Danger lies on the side of investigation, on the
side of thought. The perfectly idiotic are absolutely
safe. As they diverge from that point,—as they rise
in the intellectual scale, as the brain develops, as the
faculties enlarge, the danger increases. I know that
some biblical students now take the ground that
Samson caught no foxes,—that he only took sheaves
of wheat that had been already cut and bound, set
them on fire, and threw them into the grain still
standing. If this is what he did, of course there is
nothing miraculous about it, and the value of the
story is lost. So, others contend that Elijah was not
fed by the ravens, but by the Arabs. They tell us
that the Hebrew word standing for "Arab" also
stands for "bird," and that the word really means
"migratory—going from place to place—homeless."
But I prefer the old version. It certainly will do no
harm to believe that ravens brought bread and flesh
to a prophet of God. Where they got their bread
and flesh is none of my business; how they knew
where the prophet was, and recognized him; or how
God talks to ravens, or how he gave them directions,
I have no right to inquire. I leave these questions
to the scientists, the blasphemers, and thinkers.
There are many people in the church anxious to

391

get the miracles out of the Bible, and thousands,
I have no doubt, would be greatly gratified to learn
that there is, in fact, nothing miraculous in Scripture;
but when you take away the miraculous, you take
away the supernatural; when you take away the
supernatural, you destroy the ministry; and when
you take away the ministry, hundreds of thousands
of men will be left without employment.

Question. Is it not wonderful that the Egyptians
were not converted by the miracles wrought in their
country?

Answer. Yes, they all would have been, if God
had not purposely hardened their hearts to prevent
it. Jehovah always took great delight in furnishing
the evidence, and then hardening the man's heart so
that he would not believe it. After all the miracles
that had been performed in Egypt,—the most won-
derful that were ever done in any country, the
Egyptians were as unbelieving as at first; they pur-
sued the Israelites, knowing that they were protected
by an infinite God, and failing to overwhelm them,
came back and worshiped their own false gods just as
firmly as before. All of which shows the unreason-
ableness of a Pagan, and the natural depravity of
human nature.

392

Question. How did it happen that the Canaanites
were never convinced that the Jews were assisted by
Jehovah?

Answer. They must have been an exceedingly
brave people to contend so many years with the
chosen people of God. Notwithstanding all their
cities were burned time and time again; notwith-
standing all the men, women and children were put
to the edge of the sword; notwithstanding the taking
of all their cattle and sheep, they went right on
fighting just as valiantly and desperately as ever.
Each one lost his life many times, and was just as
ready for the next conflict. My own opinion is, that
God kept them alive by raising them from the dead
after each battle, for the purpose of punishing the
Jews. God used his enemies as instruments for the
civilization of the Jewish people. He did not wish
to convert them, because they would give him much
more trouble as Jews than they did as Canaanites.
He had all the Jews he could conveniently take care
of. He found it much easier to kill a hundred
Canaanites than to civilize one Jew.

Question. How do you account for the fact that
the heathen were not surprised at the stopping of the
sun and moon?

393

Answer. They were so ignorant that they had
not the slightest conception of the real cause of
the phenomenon. Had they known the size of
the earth, and the relation it sustained to the other
heavenly bodies; had they known the magnitude of
the sun, and the motion of the moon, they would,
in all probability, have been as greatly astonished as
the Jews were; but being densely ignorant of as-
tronomy, it must have produced upon them not the
slightest impression. But we must remember that
the sun and moon were not stopped for the purpose
of converting these people, but to give Joshua more
time to kill them. As soon as we see clearly the
purpose of Jehovah, we instantly perceive how ad-
mirable were the means adopted.

Question. Do you not consider the treatment
of the Canaanites to have been cruel and ferocious?

Answer. To a totally depraved man, it does look
cruel; to a being without any good in him,—to one
who has inherited the rascality of many generations,
the murder of innocent women and little children
does seem horrible; to one who is "contaminated in
"all his parts," by original sin,—who was "conceived
"in sin, and brought forth in iniquity," the assassina-
tion of men, and the violation of captive maidens,

394

do not seem consistent with infinite goodness. But
when one has been "born again," when "the love
"of God has been shed abroad in his heart," when
he loves all mankind, when he "overcomes evil with
"good," when he "prays for those who despite-
"fully use him and persecute him,"—to such a man,
the extermination of the Canaanites, the violation
of women, the slaughter of babes, and the destruc-
tion of countless thousands, is the highest evidence
of the goodness, the mercy, and the long-suffering
of God. When a man has been "born again," all
the passages of the Old Testament that appear so
horrible and so unjust to one in his natural state,
become the dearest, the most consoling, and the
most beautiful of truths. The real Christian reads
the accounts of these ancient battles with the greatest
possible satisfaction. To one who really loves his
enemies, the groans of men, the shrieks of women,
and the cries of babes, make music sweeter than the
zephyr's breath.

Question. In your judgment, why did God destroy
the Canaanites?

Answer. To prevent their contaminating his
chosen people. He knew that if the Jews were
allowed to live with such neighbors, they would

395

finally become as bad as the Canaanites themselves.
He wished to civilize his chosen people, and it was
therefore necessary for him to destroy the heathen.

Question. Did God succeed in civilizing the Jews
after he had "removed" the Canaanites?

Answer. Well, not entirely. He had to allow the
heathen he had not destroyed to overrun the whole
land and make captives of the Jews. This was done
for the good of his chosen people.

Question. Did he then succeed in civilizing them?

Answer. Not quite.

Question. Did he ever quite succeed in civilizing
them?

Answer. Well, we must admit that the experi-
ment never was a conspicuous success. The Jews
were chosen by the Almighty 430 years before he
appeared to Moses on Mount Sinai. He was their
direct Governor. He attended personally to their
religion and politics, and gave up a great part of his
valuable time for about two thousand years, to the
management of their affairs; and yet, such was the
condition of the Jewish people, after they had had all
these advantages, that when there arose among them
a perfectly kind, just, generous and honest man, these
people, with whom God had been laboring for so

396

many centuries, deliberately put to death that good
and loving man.

Question. Do you think that God really endeav-
ored to civilize the Jews?

Answer. This is an exceedingly hard question.
If he had really tried to do it, of course he could
have done it. We must not think of limiting the
power of the infinite. But you must remember that
if he had succeeded in civilizing the Jews, if he had
educated them up to the plane of intellectual liberty,
and made them just and kind and merciful, like him-
self, they would not have crucified Christ, and you
can see at once the awful condition in which we
would all be to-day. No atonement could have
been made; and if no atonement had been made,
then, according to the Christian system, the whole
world would have been lost. We must admit that
there was no time in the history of the Jews from
Sinai to Jerusalem, that they would not have put a
man like Christ to death.

Question. So you think that, after all, it was not
God's intention that the Jews should become civilized?

Answer. We do not know. We can only say
that "God's ways are not our ways." It may be
that God took them in his special charge, for the

397

purpose of keeping them bad enough to make the
necessary sacrifice. That may have been the divine
plan. In any event, it is safer to believe the explana-
tion that is the most unreasonable.

Question. Do you think that Christ knew the
Jews would crucify him?

Answer. Certainly.

Question. Do you think that when he chose
Judas he knew that he would betray him?

Answer. Certainly.

Question. Did he know when Judas went to the
chief priest and made the bargain for the delivery
of Christ?

Answer. Certainly.

Question. Why did he allow himself to be be-
trayed, if he knew the plot?

Answer. Infidelity is a very good doctrine to live
by, but you should read the last words of Paine and
Voltaire.

Question. If Christ knew that Judas would betray
him, why did he choose him?

Answer. Nothing can exceed the atrocities of the
French Revolution—when they carried a woman
through the streets and worshiped her as the goddess
of Reason.

398

Question. Would not the mission of Christ have
been a failure had no one betrayed him?

Answer. Thomas Paine was a drunkard, and re-
canted on his death-bed, and died a blaspheming
infidel besides.

Question. Is it not clear that an atonement was
necessary; and is it not equally clear that the atone-
ment could not have been made unless somebody
had betrayed Christ; and unless the Jews had been
wicked and orthodox enough to crucify him?

Answer. Of course the atonement had to be
made. It was a part of the "divine plan" that Christ
should be betrayed, and that the Jews should be
wicked enough to kill him. Otherwise, the world
would have been lost.

Question. Suppose Judas had understood the
divine plan, what ought he to have done? Should
he have betrayed Christ, or let somebody else do it;
or should he have allowed the world to perish, in-
cluding his own soul?

Answer. If you take the Bible away from the
world, "how would it be possible to have witnesses
"sworn in courts;" how would it be possible to ad-
minister justice?

Question. If Christ had not been betrayed and

399

crucified, is it true that his own mother would be in
perdition to-day?

Answer. Most assuredly. There was but one
way by which she could be saved, and that was by
the death of her son—through the blood of the
atonement. She was totally depraved through the
sin of Adam, and deserved eternal death. Even her
love for the infant Christ was, in the sight of God,—
that is to say, of her babe,—wickedness. It can not
be repeated too often that there is only one way to
be saved, and that is, to believe in the Lord Jesus
Christ.

Question. Could Christ have prevented the Jews
from crucifying him?

Answer. He could.

Question. If he could have saved his life and did
not, was he not guilty of suicide?

Answer. No one can understand these questions
who has not read the prophecies of Daniel, and has
not a clear conception of what is meant by "the full-
"ness of time."

Question. What became of all the Canaanites, the
Egyptians, the Hindus, the Greeks and Romans and
Chinese? What became of the billions who died
before the promise was made to Abraham; of the

400

billions and billions who never heard of the Bible,
who never heard the name, even, of Jesus Christ—
never knew of "the scheme of salvation"? What
became of the millions and billions who lived in this
hemisphere, and of whose existence Jehovah himself
seemed perfectly ignorant?

Answer. They were undoubtedly lost. God
having made them, had a right to do with them as
he pleased. They are probably all in hell to-day, and
the fact that they are damned, only adds to the joy
of the redeemed. It is by contrast that we are able
to perceive the infinite kindness with which God has
treated us.

Question. Is it not possible that something can
be done for a human soul in another world as well as
in this?

Answer. No; this is the only world in which
God even attempts to reform anybody. In the
other world, nothing is done for the purpose of
making anybody better. Here in this world, where
man lives but a few days, is the only opportunity
for moral improvement. A minister can do a thou-
sand times more for a soul than its creator; and this
country is much better adapted to moral growth than
heaven itself. A person who lived on this earth a

401

few years, and died without having been converted,
has no hope in another world. The moment he arrives
at the judgment seat, nothing remains but to damn
him. Neither God, nor the Holy Ghost, nor Jesus
Christ, can have the least possible influence with
him there.

Question. When God created each human being,
did he know exactly what would be his eternal fate?

Answer. Most assuredly he did.

Question. Did he know that hundreds and millions
and billions would suffer eternal pain?

Answer. Certainly. But he gave them freedom
of choice between good and evil.

Question. Did he know exactly how they would
use that freedom?

Answer. Yes.

Question. Did he know that billions would use
it wrong?

Answer. Yes.

Question. Was it optional with him whether he
should make such people or not?

Answer. Certainly.

Question. Had these people any option as to
whether they would be made or not?

Answer, No.

402

Question. Would it not have been far better to
leave them unconscious dust?

Answer. These questions show how foolish it is
to judge God according to a human standard. What
to us seems just and merciful, God may regard in an
exactly opposite light; and we may hereafter be
developed to such a degree that we will regard the
agonies of the damned as the highest possible evi-
dence of the goodness and mercy of God.

Question. How do you account for the fact that
God did not make himself known except to Abra-
ham and his descendants? Why did he fail to
reveal himself to the other nations—nations that,
compared with the Jews, were learned, cultivated
and powerful? Would you regard a revelation now
made to the Esquimaux as intended for us; and
would it be a revelation of which we would be
obliged to take notice?

Answer. Of course, God could have revealed him-
self, not only to all the great nations, but to each
individual. He could have had the Ten Command-
ments engraved on every heart and brain; or he
could have raised up prophets in every land; but
he chose, rather, to allow countless millions of his
children to wander in the darkness and blackness of

403

Nature; chose, rather, that they should redden their
hands in each other's blood; chose, rather, that they
should live without light, and die without hope;
chose, rather, that they should suffer, not only in this
world, but forever in the next. Of course we have
no right to find fault with the choice of God.

Question. Now you can tell a sinner to "believe
"on the Lord Jesus Christ;" what could a sinner have
been told in Egypt, three thousand years ago; and
in what language would you have addressed a Hindu
in the days of Buddha—the "divine scheme" at that
time being a secret in the divine breast?

Answer. It is not for us to think upon these
questions. The moment we examine the Christian
system, we begin to doubt. In a little while, we shall
be infidels, and shall lose the respect of those who
refuse to think. It is better to go with the majority.
These doctrines are too sacred to be touched. You
should be satisfied with the religion of your father
and your mother. "You want some book on the
"centre-table," in the parlor; it is extremely handy
to have a Family Record; and what book, other than
the Bible, could a mother give a son as he leaves the
old homestead?

Question. Is it not wonderful that all the writers

404

of the four gospels do not give an account of the
ascension of Jesus Christ?

Answer. This question has been answered long
ago, time and time again.

Question. Perhaps it has, but would it not be
well enough to answer it once more? Some may
not have seen the answer?

Answer. Show me the hospitals that infidels
have built; show me the asylums that infidels
have founded.

Question. I know you have given the usual an-
swer; but after all, is it not singular that a miracle
so wonderful as the bodily ascension of a man, should
not have been mentioned by all the writers of that
man's life? Is it not wonderful that some of them
said that he did ascend, and others that he agreed to
stay with his disciples always?

Answer. People unacquainted with the Hebrew,
can have no conception of these things. A story
in plain English, does not sound as it does in Hebrew.
Miracles seem altogether more credible, when told in
a dead language.

Question. What, in your judgment, became of
the dead who were raised by Christ? Is it not
singular that they were never mentioned afterward?

405

Would not a man who had been raised from the
dead naturally be an object of considerable interest,
especially to his friends and acquaintances? And
is it not also wonderful that Christ, after having
wrought so many miracles, cured so many lame and
halt and blind, fed so many thousands miraculously,
and after having entered Jerusalem in triumph as a
conqueror and king, had to be pointed out by one
of his own disciples who was bribed for the purpose?

Answer. Of course, all these things are exceed-
ingly wonderful, and if found in any other book,
would be absolutely incredible; but we have no
right to apply the same kind of reasoning to the
Bible that we apply to the Koran or to the sacred
books of the Hindus. For the ordinary affairs of
this world, God has given us reason; but in the
examination of religious questions, we should de-
pend upon credulity and faith.

Question. If Christ came to offer himself a sacri-
fice, for the purpose of making atonement for the
sins of such as might believe on him, why did he
not make this fact known to all of his disciples?

Answer. He did. This was, and is, the gospel.

Question. How is it that Matthew says nothing
about "salvation by faith," but simply says that God

406

will be merciful to the merciful, that he will forgive
the forgiving, and says not one word about the
necessity of believing anything?

Answer. But you will remember that Mark says,
in the last chapter of his gospel, that "whoso be-
"lieveth not shall be damned."

Question. Do you admit that Matthew says
nothing on the subject?

Answer. Yes, I suppose I must.

Question. Is not that passage in Mark generally
admitted to be an interpolation?

Answer. Some biblical scholars say that it is.

Question. Is that portion of the last chapter of
Mark found in the Syriac version of the Bible?

Answer. It is not.

Question. If it was necessary to believe on Jesus
Christ, in order to be saved, how is it that Matthew
failed to say so?

Answer. "There are more copies of the Bible
"printed to-day, than of any other book in the world,
"and it is printed in more languages than any other
"book."

Question. Do you consider it necessary to be
"regenerated"—to be "born again"—in order to be
saved?

407

Answer. Certainly.

Question. Did Matthew say anything on the sub-
ject of "regeneration"?

Answer. No.

Question. Did Mark?

Answer. No.

Question. Did Luke?

Answer. No.

Question. Is Saint John the only one who speaks
of the necessity of being "born again"?

Answer. He is.

Question. Do you think that Matthew, Mark and
Luke knew anything about the necessity of "regen-
"eration"?

Answer. Of course they did.

Question. Why did they fail to speak of it?

Answer. There is no civilization without the Bible.
The moment you throw away the sacred Scriptures,
you are all at sea—you are without an anchor and
without a compass.

Question. You will remember that, according to
Mark, Christ said to his disciples: "Go ye into all
"the world, and preach the gospel to every creature."
Did he refer to the gospel set forth by Mark?

Answer. Of course he did.

408

Question. Well, in the gospel set forth by Mark,
there is not a word about "regeneration," and no
word about the necessity of believing anything—ex-
cept in an interpolated passage. Would it not seem
from this, that "regeneration" and a "belief in the
"Lord Jesus Christ," are no part of the gospel?

Answer. Nothing can exceed in horror the last
moments of the infidel; nothing can be more ter-
rible than the death of the doubter. When the
glories of this world fade from the vision; when am-
bition becomes an empty name; when wealth turns
to dust in the palsied hand of death, of what use is
philosophy then? Who cares then for the pride of
intellect? In that dread moment, man needs some-
thing to rely on, whether it is true or not.

Question. Would it not have been more con-
vincing if Christ, after his resurrection, had shown
himself to his enemies as well as to his friends?
Would it not have greatly strengthened the evidence
in the case, if he had visited Pilate; had presented
himself before Caiaphas, the high priest; if he had
again entered the temple, and again walked the
streets of Jerusalem?

Answer. If the evidence had been complete and
overwhelming, there would have been no praise-

409

worthiness in belief; even publicans and sinners
would have believed, if the evidence had been suffi-
cient. The amount of evidence required is the test
of the true Christian spirit.

Question. Would it not also have been better
had the ascension taken place in the presence of
unbelieving thousands; it seems such a pity to have
wasted such a demonstration upon those already
convinced?

Answer. These questions are the natural fruit of
the carnal mind, and can be accounted for only by
the doctrine of total depravity. Nothing has given
the church more trouble than just such questions.
Unholy curiosity, a disposition to pry into the divine
mysteries, a desire to know, to investigate, to explain
—in short, to understand, are all evidences of a re-
probate mind.

Question. How can we account for the fact that
Matthew alone speaks of the wise men of the East
coming with gifts to the infant Christ; that he alone
speaks of the little babes being killed by Herod? Is
it possible that the other writers never heard of these
things?

Answer. Nobody can get any good out of the
Bible by reading it in a critical spirit. The contra-

410

dictions and discrepancies are only apparent, and melt
away before the light of faith. That which in other
books would be absolute and palpable contradiction,
is, in the Bible, when spiritually discerned, a perfect
and beautiful harmony. My own opinion is, that
seeming contradictions are in the Bible for the pur-
pose of testing and strengthening the faith of Chris-
tians, and for the further purpose of ensnaring infidels,
"that they might believe a lie and be damned."
Question. Is it possible that a good God would
take pains to deceive his children?

Answer. The Bible is filled with instances of that
kind, and all orthodox ministers now know that
fossil animals—that is, representations of animals in
stone, were placed in the rocks on purpose to mis-
lead men like Darwin and Humboldt, Huxley and
Tyndall. It is also now known that God, for the
purpose of misleading the so-called men of science,
had hairy elephants preserved in ice, made stomachs
for them, and allowed twigs of trees to be found in
these stomachs, when, as a matter of fact, no such
elephants ever lived or ever died. These men who
are endeavoring to overturn the Scriptures with the
lever of science will find that they have been de-
ceived. Through all eternity they will regret their

411

philosophy. They will wish, in the next world, that
they had thrown away geology and physiology and
all other "ologies" except theology. The time is
coming when Jehovah will "mock at their fears and
"laugh at their calamity."

Question. If Joseph was not the father of Christ,
why was his genealogy given to show that Christ
was of the blood of David; why would not the
genealogy of any other Jew have done as well?

Answer. That objection was raised and answered
hundreds of years ago.

Question. If they wanted to show that Christ was of
the blood of David, why did they not give the gene-
alogy of his mother if Joseph was not his father?

Answer. That objection was answered hundreds
of years ago.

Question. How was it answered?

Answer. When Voltaire was dying, he sent for a
priest.

Question. How does it happen that the two gene-
alogies given do not agree?

Answer. Perhaps they were written by different
persons.

Question. Were both these persons inspired by
the same God?

412

Answer. Of course.

Question. Why were the miracles recorded in the
New Testament performed?

Answer. The miracles were the evidence relied
on to prove the supernatural origin and the divine
mission of Jesus Christ.

Question. Aside from the miracles, is there any
evidence to show the supernatural origin or character
of Jesus Christ?

Answer. Some have considered that his moral
precepts are sufficient, of themselves, to show that
he was divine.

Question. Had all of his moral precepts been
taught before he lived?

Answer. The same things had been said, but they
did not have the same meaning.

Question. Does the fact that Buddha taught the
same tend to show that he was of divine origin?

Answer. Certainly not. The rules of evidence
applicable to the Bible are not applicable to other
books. We examine other books in the light of
reason; the Bible is the only exception. So, we
should not judge of Christ as we do of any other
man.

Question. Do you think that Christ wrought

413

many of his miracles because he was good, charitable,
and filled with pity?

Answer. Certainly

Question. Has he as much power now as he had
when on earth?

Answer. Most assuredly.

Question. Is he as charitable and pitiful now, as
he was then?

Answer. Yes.

Question. Why does he not now cure the lame
and the halt and the blind?

Answer. It is well known that, when Julian the
Apostate was dying, catching some of his own blood
in his hand and throwing it into the air he exclaimed:
"Galileean, thou hast conquered!"

Question. Do you consider it our duty to love our
neighbor?

Answer. Certainly.

Question. Is virtue the same in all worlds?

Answer. Most assuredly.

Question. Are we under obligation to render good
for evil, and to "pray for those who despitefully use us"?

Answer. Yes.

Question. Will Christians in heaven love their
neighbors?

414

Answer. Y es; if their neighbors are not in hell.

Question. Do good Christians pity sinners in this
world?

Answer. Yes.

Question. Why?

Answer. Because they regard them as being in
great danger of the eternal wrath of God.

Question. After these sinners have died, and
been sent to hell, will the Christians in heaven then
pity them?

Answer. No. Angels have no pity.

Question. If we are under obligation to love our
enemies, is not God under obligation to love his?
If we forgive our enemies, ought not God to forgive
his? If we forgive those who injure us, ought not
God to forgive those who have not injured him?

Answer. God made us, and he has therefore the
right to do with us as he pleases. Justice demands
that he should damn all of us, and the few that he
will save will be saved through mercy and without
the slightest respect to anything they may have done
themselves. Such is the justice of God, that those
in hell will have no right to complain, and those in
heaven will have no right to be there. Hell is justice,
and salvation is charity.

415

Question. Do you consider it possible for a law to
be jusdy satisfied by the punishment of an innocent
person?

Answer. Such is the scheme of the atonement.
As man is held responsible for the sin of Adam, so
he will be credited with the virtues of Christ; and
you can readily see that one is exactly as reasonable
as the other.

Question. Suppose a man honestly reads the New
Testament, and honestly concludes that it is not an
inspired book; suppose he honestly makes up his
mind that the miracles are not true; that the devil
never really carried Christ to the pinnacle of the
temple; that devils were really never cast out of a
man and allowed to take refuge in swine;—I say,
suppose that he is honestly convinced that these
things are not true, what ought he to say?

Answer. He ought to say nothing.

Question. Suppose that the same man should read
the Koran, and come to the conclusion that it is not
an inspired book; what ought he to say?

Answer. He ought to say that it is not inspired;
his fellow-men are entitled to his honest opinion, and
it is his duty to do what he can do to destroy a per-
nicious superstition.

416

Question. Suppose then, that a reader of the Bible,
having become convinced that it is not inspired—
honestly convinced—says nothing—keeps his con-
clusion absolutely to himself, and suppose he dies in
that belief, can he be saved?

Answer. Certainly not.

Question. Has the honesty of his belief anything
to do with his future condition?

Answer. Nothing whatever.,

Question. Suppose that he tried to believe, that
he hated to disagree with his friends, and with his
parents, but that in spite of himself he was forced to
the conclusion that the Bible is not the inspired word
of God, would he then deserve eternal punishment?

Answer. Certainly he would.

Question. Can a man control his belief?

Answer. He cannot—except as to the Bible.

Question. Do you consider it just in God to
create a man who cannot believe the Bible, and then
damn him because he does not?

Answer. Such is my belief.

Question. Is it your candid opinion that a man
who does not believe the Bible should keep his
belief a secret from his fellow-men?

Answer. It is.

417

Question. How do I know that you believe the
Bible? You have told me that if you did not be-
lieve it, you would not tell me?

Answer. There is no way for you to ascertain,
except by taking my word for it.

Question. What will be the fate of a man who
does not believe it, and yet pretends to believe it?

Answer. He will be damned.

Question. Then hypocrisy will not save him?

Answer. No.

Question. And if he does not believe it, and ad-
mits that he does not believe it, then his honesty will
not save him?

Answer. No. Honesty on the wrong side is no
better than hypocrisy on the right side.

Question. Do we know who wrote the gospels?

Answer. Yes; we do.

Question. Are we absolutely sure who wrote
them?

Answer. Of course; we have the evidence as it
has come to us through the Catholic Church.

Question. Can we rely upon the Catholic Church
now?

Answer. No; assuredly no! But we have the
testimony of Polycarp and Irenæus and Clement,

418

and others of the early fathers, together with that of
the Christian historian, Eusebius.

Question. What do we really know about Polycarp?

Answer. We know that he suffered martyrdom un-
der Marcus Aurelius, and that for quite a time the fire
refused to burn his body, the flames arching over him,
leaving him in a kind of fiery tent; and we also know
that from his body came a fragrance like frankincense,
and that the Pagans were so exasperated at seeing
the miracle, that one of them thrust a sword through
the body of Polycarp; that the blood flowed out and
extinguished the flames and that out of the wound
flew the soul of the martyr in the form of a dove.

Question. Is that all we know about Polycarp?

Answer. Yes, with the exception of a few more
like incidents.

Question. Do we know that Polycarp ever met
St. John?

Answer. Yes; Eusebius says so.

Question. Are we absolutely certain that he ever
lived?

Answer. Yes, or Eusebius could not have written
about him.

Question. Do we know anything of the character
of Eusebius?

419

Answer. Yes; we know that he was untruthful
only when he wished to do good. But God can use
even the dishonest. Other books have to be sub-
stantiated by truthful men, but such is the power of
God, that he can establish the inspiration of the Bible
by the most untruthful witnesses. If God's witnesses
were honest, anybody could believe, and what be-
comes of faith, one of the greatest virtues?

Question. Is the New Testament now the same as
it was in the days of the early fathers?

Answer. Certainly not. Many books now thrown
out, and not esteemed of divine origin, were esteemed
divine by Polycarp and Irenæus and Clement and
many of the early churches. These books are now
called "apocryphal."

Question. Have you not the same witnesses in
favor of their authenticity, that you have in favor of
the gospels?

Answer. Precisely the same. Except that they
were thrown out.

Question. Why were they thrown out?

Answer. Because the Catholic Church did not es-
teem them inspired.

Question. Did the Catholics decide for us which
are the true gospels and which are the true epistles?

420

Answer. Yes. The Catholic Church was then the
only church, and consequently must have been the
true church.

Question. How did the Catholic Church select the
true books?

Answer. Councils were called, and votes were
taken, very much as we now pass resolutions in
political meetings.

Question. Was the Catholic Church infallible then?

Answer. It was then, but it is not now.

Question. If the Catholic Church at that time
had thrown out the book of Revelation, would it
now be our duty to believe that book to have been
inspired?

Answer. No, I suppose not.

Question. Is it not true that some of these books
were adopted by exceedingly small majorities?

Answer. It is.

Question. If the Epistle to the Hebrews and to
the Romans, and the book of Revelation had been
thrown out, could a man now be saved who honestly
believes the rest of the books?

Answer. This is doubtful.

Question. Were the men who picked out the in-
spired books inspired?

421

Answer. We cannot tell, but the probability is
that they were.

Question. Do we know that they picked out the
right ones?

Answer. Well, not exactly, but we believe that
they did.

Question. Are we certain that some of the books
that were thrown out were not inspired?

Answer. Well, the only way to tell is to read
them carefully.

Question. If upon reading these apocryphal books
a man concludes that they are not inspired, will he be
damned for that reason?

Answer. No. Certainly not.

Question. If he concludes that some of them are
inspired, and believes them, will he then be damned
for that belief?

Answer. Oh, no! Nobody is ever damned for
believing too much.

Question. Does the fact that the books now com-
prising the New Testament were picked out by the
Catholic Church prevent their being examined now
by an honest man, as they were examined at the time
they were picked out?

422

Answer. No; not if the man comes to the con-
clusion that they are inspired.

Question. Does the fact that the Catholic Church
picked them out and declared them to be inspired,
render it a crime to examine them precisely as you
would examine the books that the Catholic Church
threw out and declared were not inspired?

Answer. I think it does.

Question. At the time the council was held in which
it was determined which of the books of the New
Testament are inspired, a respectable minority voted
against some that were finally decided to be inspired.
If they were honest in the vote they gave, and died
without changing their opinions, are they now in hell?

Answer. Well, they ought to be.

Question. If those who voted to leave the book
of Revelation out of the canon, and the gospel of
Saint John out of the canon, believed honestly that
these were not inspired books, how should they have
voted?

Answer. Well, I suppose a man ought to vote as
he honestly believes—except in matters of religion.

Question. If the Catholic Church was not infal-
lible, is the question still open as to what books are,
and what are not, inspired?

423

Answer. I suppose the question is still open—
but it would be dangerous to decide it.

Question. If, then, I examine all the books again,
and come to the conclusion that some that were
thrown out were inspired, and some that were ac-
cepted were not inspired, ought I to say so?

Answer. Not if it is contrary to the faith of your
father, or calculated to interfere with your own po-
litical prospects.

Question. Is it as great a sin to admit into the
Bible books that are uninspired as to reject those
that are inspired?

Answer. Well, it is a crime to reject an inspired
book, no matter how unsatisfactory the evidence is
for its inspiration, but it is not a crime to receive an
uninspired book. God damns nobody for believing
too much. An excess of credulity is simply to err in
the direction of salvation.

Question. Suppose a man disbelieves in the inspira-
tion of the New Testament—believes it to be entirely
the work of uninspired men; and suppose he also be-
lieves—but not from any evidence obtained in the New
Testament—that Jesus Christ was the son of God, and
that he made atonement for his soul, can he then be
saved without a belief in the inspiration of the Bible?

424

Answer. This has not yet been decided by
our church, and I do not wish to venture an
opinion.

Question. Suppose a man denies the inspiration
of the Scriptures; suppose that he also denies the
divinity of Jesus Christ; and suppose, further, that
he acts precisely as Christ is said to have acted;
suppose he loves his enemies, prays for those who
despitefully use him, and does all the good he pos-
sibly can, is it your opinion that such a man will be
saved?

Answer. No, sir. There is "none other name
"given under heaven and among men," whereby a
sinner can be saved but the name of Christ.

Question. Then it is your opinion that God
would save a murderer who believed in Christ, and
would damn another man, exactly like Christ, who
failed to believe in him?

Answer. Yes; because we have the blessed
promise that, out of Christ, "our God is a consuming
"fire."

Question. Suppose a man read the Bible care-
fully and honestly, and was not quite convinced that
it was true, and that while examining the subject, he
died; what then?

425

Answer. I do not believe that God would allow
him to examine the matter in another world, or to
make up his mind in heaven. Of course, he would
eternally perish.

Question. Could Christ now furnish evidence
enough to convince every human being of the truth
of the Bible?

Answer. Of course he could, because he is in-
finite.

Question. Are any miracles performed now?

Answer. Oh, no!

Question. Have we any testimony, except human
testimony, to substantiate any miracle?

Answer. Only human testimony.

Question. Do all men give the same force to the
same evidence?

Answer. By no means.

Question. Have all honest men who have exam-
ined the Bible believed it to be inspired?

Answer. Of course they have. Infidels are not
honest.

Question. Could any additional evidence have
been furnished?

Answer. With perfect ease.

Question. Would God allow a soul to suffer

426

eternal agony rather than furnish evidence of the
truth of his Bible?

Answer. God has furnished plenty of evidence,
and altogether more than was really necessary. We
should read the Bible in a believing spirit.

Question. Are all parts of the inspired books
equally true?

Answer. Necessarily.

Question. According to Saint Matthew, God
promises to forgive all who will forgive others; not
one word is said about believing in Christ, or believ-
ing in the miracles, or in any Bible; did Matthew tell
the truth?

Answer. The Bible must be taken as a whole;
and if other conditions are added somewhere else,
then you must comply with those other conditions.
Matthew may not have stated all the conditions.

Question. I find in another part of the New
Testament, that a young man came to Christ and
asked him what was necessary for him to do in order
that he might inherit eternal life. Christ did not tell
him that he must believe the Bible, or that he must
believe in him, or that he must keep the Sabbath-
day; was Christ honest with that young man?

Answer. Well, I suppose he was.

427

Question. You will also recollect that Zaccheus
said to Christ, that where he had wronged any man
he had made restitution, and further, that half his
goods he had given to the poor; and you will re-
member that Christ said to Zaccheus: "This day
"hath salvation come to thy house." Why did not
Christ tell Zaccheus that he "must be born again;"
that he must "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ"?

Answer. Of course there are mysteries in our
holy religion that only those who have been "born
"again" can understand. You must remember that
"the carnal mind is enmity with God."

Question. Is it not strange that Christ, in his Ser-
mon on the Mount, did not speak of "regeneration,"
or of the "scheme of salvation"?

Answer. Well, it may be.

Question. Can a man be saved now by living
exactly in accordance with the Sermon on the Mount?

Answer. He can not.

Question. Would then a man, by following the
course of conduct prescribed by Christ in the Sermon
on the Mount, lose his soul?

Answer. He most certainly would, because there
is not one word in the Sermon on the Mount about
believing on the Lord Jesus Christ; not one word

428

about believing in the Bible; not one word about the
"atonement;" not one word about "regeneration."
So that, if the Presbyterian Church is right, it is abso-
lutely certain that a man might follow the teachings
of the Sermon on the Mount, and live in accordance
with its every word, and yet deserve and receive the
eternal condemnation of God. But we must remem-
ber that the Sermon on the Mount was preached be-
fore Christianity existed. Christ was talking to Jews.

Question. Did Christ write anything himself, in
the New Testament?

Answer. Not a word.

Question. Did he tell any of his disciples to write
any of his words?

Answer. There is no account of it, if he did.

Question. Do we know whether any of the dis-
ciples wrote anything?

Answer. Of course they did.

Question. How do you know?

Answer. Because the gospels bear their names.

Question. Are you satisfied that Christ was abso-
lutely God?

Answer. Of course he was. We believe that
Christ and God and the Holy Ghost are all the same,
that the three form one, and that each one is three.

429

Question. Was Christ the God of the universe at
the time of his birth?

Answer. He certainly was.

Question. Was he the infinite God, creator
and controller of the entire universe, before he was
born?

Answer. Of course he was. This is the mystery
of "God manifest in the flesh." The infidels have
pretended that he was like any other child, and was
in fact supported by Nature instead of being the
supporter of Nature. They have insisted that like
other children, he had to be cared for by his mother.
Of course he appeared to be cared for by his mother.
It was a part of the plan that in all respects he should
appear to be like other children.

Question. Did he know just as much before he
was born as after?

Answer. If he was God of course he did.

Question. How do you account for the fact that
Saint Luke tells us, in the last verse of the second
chapter of his gospel, that "Jesus increased in wis-
"dom and stature"?

Answer. That I presume is a figure of speech;
because, if he was God, he certainly could not have
increased in wisdom. The physical part of him could

430

increase in stature, but the intellectual part must have
been infinite all the time.

Question. Do you think that Luke was mistaken?

Answer. No; I believe what Luke said. If it
appears untrue, or impossible, then I know that it is
figurative or symbolical.

Question. Did I understand you to say that Christ
was actually God?

Answer. Of course he was.

Question. Then why did Luke say in the same
verse of the same chapter that "Jesus increased in
"favor with God"?

Answer. I dare you to go into a room by your-
self and read the fourteenth chapter of Saint John!

Question. Is it necessary to understand the Bible
in order to be saved?

Answer. Certainly not; it is only necessary that
you believe it.

Question. Is it necessary to believe all the
miracles?

Answer. It may not be necessary, but as it is im-
possible to tell which ones can safely be left out, you
had better believe them all.

Question. Then you regard belief as the safe
way?

431

Answer. Of course it is better to be fooled in this
world than to be damned in the next.

Question. Do you think that there are any cruel-
ties on God's part recorded in the Bible?

Answer. At first flush, many things done by God
himself, as well as by his prophets, appear to be
cruel; but if we examine them closely, we will find
them to be exactly the opposite.

Question. How do you explain the story of Elisha
and the children,—where the two she-bears destroyed
forty-two children on account of their impudence?

Answer. This miracle, in my judgment, estab-
lishes two things: 1. That children should be polite
to ministers, and 2. That God is kind to animals—
"giving them their meat in due season." These
bears have been great educators—they are the
foundation of the respect entertained by the young
for theologians. No child ever sees a minister now
without thinking of a bear.

Question. What do you think of the story of
Daniel—you no doubt remember it? Some men
told the king that Daniel was praying contrary to
law, and thereupon Daniel was cast into a den of
lions; but the lions could not touch him, their
mouths having been shut by angels. The next

432

morning, the king, finding that Daniel was still
intact, had him taken out; and then, for the purpose
of gratifying Daniels God, the king had all the men
who had made the complaint against Daniel, and
their wives and their little children, brought and cast
into the lions' den. According to the account, the
lions were so hungry that they caught these wives
and children as they dropped, and broke all their
bones in pieces before they had even touched the
ground. Is it not wonderful that God failed to pro-
tect these innocent wives and children?

Answer. These wives and children were heathen;
they were totally depraved. And besides, they were
used as witnesses. The fact that they were devoured
with such quickness shows that the lions were
hungry. Had it not been for this, infidels would
have accounted for the safety of Daniel by saying
that the lions had been fed.

Question. Do you believe that Shadrach, Meshach
and Abednego were cast "into a burning fiery furnace
"heated one seven times hotter than it was wont to
"be heated," and that they had on "their coats, their
"hosen and their hats," and that when they came
out "not a hair of their heads was singed, nor was
"the smell of fire upon their garments"?

433

Answer. The evidence of this miracle is exceed-
ingly satisfactory. It resulted in the conversion of
Nebuchadnezzar.

Question. How do you know he was converted?

Answer. Because immediately after the miracle
the king issued a decree that "every people, nation
"and language that spoke anything amiss against
"the God of Shadrach and Company, should be cut
"in pieces." This decree shows that he had become
a true disciple and worshiper of Jehovah.

Question. If God in those days preserved from
the fury of the fire men who were true to him and
would not deny his name, why is it that he has failed
to protect thousands of martyrs since that time?

Answer. This is one of the divine mysteries.
God has in many instances allowed his enemies to
kill his friends. I suppose this was allowed for the
good of his enemies, that the heroism of the mar-
tyrs might convert them.

Question. Do you believe all the miracles?

Answer. I believe them all, because I believe the
Bible to be inspired.

Question. What makes you think it is inspired?

Answer. I have never seen anybody who knew
it was not; besides, my father and mother believed it.

434

Question. Have you any other reasons for be-
lieving it to be inspired?

Answer. Yes; there are more copies of the Bible
printed than of any other book; and it is printed in
more languages. And besides, it would be impossible
to get along without it.

Question. Why could we not get along without it?

Answer. We would have nothing to swear wit-
nesses by; no book in which to keep the family
record; nothing for the centre-table, and nothing for
a mother to give her son. No nation can be civilized
without the Bible.

Question. Did God always know that a Bible was
necessary to civilize a country?

Answer. Certainly he did.

Question. Why did he not give a Bible to
the Egyptians, the Hindus, the Greeks and the
Romans?

Answer. It is astonishing what perfect fools in-
fidels are.

Question. Why do you call infidels "fools"?

Answer. Because I find in the fifth chapter of the
gospel according to Matthew the following: "Who-
"soever shall say 'Thou fool!' shall be in danger of
"hell fire."

435

Question. Have I the right to read the Bible?

Answer. Yes. You not only have the right, but
it is your duty.

Question. In reading the Bible the words make
certain impressions on my mind. These impressions
depend upon my brain,—upon my intelligence. Is
not this true?

Answer. Of course, when you read the Bible, im-
pressions are made upon your mind.

Question. Can I control these impressions?

Answer. I do not think you can, as long as you
remain in a sinful state.

Question. How am I to get out of this sinful state?

Answer. You must believe on the Lord Jesus
Christ, and you must read the Bible in a prayerful
spirit and with a believing heart.

Question. Suppose that doubts force themselves
upon my mind?

Answer. Then you will know that you are a sin-
ner, and that you are depraved.

Question. If I have the right to read the Bible,
have I the right to try to understand it?

Answer. Most assuredly.

Question. Do you admit that I have the right to
reason about it and to investigate it?

436

Answer. Yes; I admit that. Of course you can-
not help reasoning about what you read.

Question. Does the right to read a book include
the right to give your opinion as to the truth of what
the book contains?

Answer. Of course,—if the book is not inspired.
Infidels hate the Bible because it is inspired, and
Christians know that it is inspired because infidels
say that it is not.

Question. Have I the right to decide for myself
whether or not the book is inspired?

Answer. You have no right to deny the truth of
God's Holy Word.

Question. Is God the author of all books?

Answer. Certainly not.

Question. Have I the right to say that God did
not write the Koran?

Answer. Yes.

Question. Why?

Answer. Because the Koran was written by an
impostor.

Question. How do you know?

Answer. My reason tells me so.

Question. Have you the right to be guided by
your reason?

437

Answer. I must be.

Question. Have you the same right to follow your
reason after reading the Bible?

Answer. No. The Bible is the standard of reason.
The Bible is not to be judged or corrected by your
reason. Your reason is to be weighed and measured
by the Bible. The Bible is different from other
books and must not be read in the same critical spirit,
nor judged by the same standard.

Question. What did God give us reason for?

Answer. So that we might investigate other
religions, and examine other so-called sacred books.

Question. If a man honestly thinks that the Bible
is not inspired, what should he say?

Answer. He should admit that he is mistaken.

Question. When he thinks he is right?

Answer. Yes. The Bible is different from other
books. It is the master of reason. You read the
Bible, not to see if that is wrong, but to see
whether your reason is right. It is the only book
about which a man has no right to reason. He must
believe. The Bible is addressed, not to the reason,
but to the ears: "He that hath ears to hear, let
"him hear."

Question. Do you think we have the right to tell

438

what the Bible means—what ideas God intended to
convey, or has conveyed to us, through the medium
of the Bible?

Answer. Well, I suppose you have that right.
Yes, that must be your duty. You certainly ought
to tell others what God has said to you.

Question. Do all men get the same ideas from
the Bible?

Answer. No.

Question. How do you account for that?

Answer. Because all men are not alike; they
differ in intellect, in education, and in experience.

Question. Who has the right to decide as to the
real ideas that God intended to convey?

Answer. I am a Protestant, and believe in the
right of private judgment. Whoever does not is a
Catholic. Each man must be his own judge, but God
will hold him responsible.

Question. Does God believe in the right of private
judgment?

Answer. Of course he does.

Question. Is he willing that I should exercise my
judgment in deciding whether the Bible is inspired or
not?

Answer. No. He believes in the exercise of

439

private judgment only in the examination and rejec-
tion of other books than the Bible.

Question. Is he a Catholic?

Answer. I cannot answer blasphemy! Let me
tell you that God will "laugh at your calamity, and
"will mock when your fear cometh." You will be
accursed.

Question. Why do you curse infidels?

Answer. Because I am a Christian.

Question. Did not Christ say that we ought to
"bless those who curse us," and that we should
"love our enemies"?

Answer. Yes, but he cursed the Pharisees and
called them "hypocrites" and "vipers."

Question. How do you account for that?

Answer. It simply shows the difference between
theory and practice.

Question. What do you consider the best way to
answer infidels.

Answer. The old way is the best. You should
say that their arguments are ancient, and have been
answered over and over again. If this does not
satisfy your hearers, then you should attack the
character of the infidel—then that of his parents—
then that of his children.

440

Question. Suppose that the infidel is a good man,
how will you answer him then?

Answer. But an infidel cannot be a good man.
Even if he is, it is better that he should lose his
reputation, than that thousands should lose their
souls. We know that all infidels are vile and infa-
mous. We may not have the evidence, but we know
that it exists.

Question. How should infidels be treated? Should
Christians try to convert them?

Answer. Christians should have nothing to do
with infidels. It is not safe even to converse with
them. They are always talking about reason, and
facts, and experience. They are filled with sophistry
and should be avoided.

Question. Should Christians pray for the con-
version of infidels?

Answer. Yes; but such prayers should be made
in public and the name of the infidel should be given
and his vile and hideous heart portrayed so that the
young may be warned.

Question. Whom do you regard as infidels?

Answer. The scientists—the geologists, the as-
tronomers, the naturalists, the philosophers. No one
can overestimate the evil that has been wrought

441

by Laplace, Humboldt, Darwin, Huxley, Haeckel,
Renan, Emerson, Strauss, Bikhner, Tyndall, and
their wretched followers. These men pretended to
know more than Moses and the prophets. They
were "dogs baying at the moon." They were
"wolves" and "fools." They tried to "assassinate
"God," and worse than all, they actually laughed
at the clergy,

Question. Do you think they did, and are doing
great harm?

Answer. Certainly. Of what use are all the
sciences, if you lose your own soul? People in hell
will care nothing about education. The rich man
said nothing about science, he wanted water.
Neither will they care about books and theories
in heaven. If a man is perfectly happy, it makes
no difference how ignorant he is.

Question. But how can he answer these scientists?

Answer. Well, my advice is to let their argu-
ments alone. Of course, you will deny all their
facts; but the most effective way is to attack their
character.

Question. But suppose they are good men,—
what then?

Answer. The better they are, the worse they are.

442

We cannot admit that the infidel is really good. He
may appear to be good, and it is our duty to strip
the mask of appearance from the face of unbelief. If
a man is not a Christian, he is totally depraved, and
why should we hesitate to make a misstatement
about a man whom God is going to make miserable
forever?

Question. Are we not commanded to love our
enemies?

Answer. Yes, but not the enemies of God.

Question. Do you fear the final triumph of infi-
delity?

Answer. No. We have no fear. We believe
that the Bible can be revised often enough to agree
with anything that may really be necessary to the
preservation of the church. We can always rely
upon revision. Let me tell you that the Bible is the
most peculiar of books. At the time God inspired his
holy prophets to write it, he knew exactly what the
discoveries and demonstrations of the future would
be, and he wrote his Bible in such a way that the
words could always be interpreted in accordance with
the intelligence of each age, and so that the words
used are capable of several meanings, so that, no
matter what may hereafter be discovered, the Bible

443

will be found to agree with it,—for the reason that
the knowledge of Hebrew will grow in the exact
proportion that discoveries are made in other depart-
ments of knowledge. You will therefore see, that all
efforts of infidelity to destroy the Bible will simply
result in giving a better translation.

Question. What do you consider is the strongest
argument in favor of the inspiration of the Scrip-
tures?

Answer. The dying words of Christians.

Question. What do you consider the strongest
argument against the truth of infidelity?

Answer. The dying words of infidels. You know
how terrible were the death-bed scenes of Hume,
Voltaire, Paine and Hobbes, as described by hundreds
of persons who were not present; while all Christians
have died with the utmost serenity, and with their
last words have testified to the sustaining power of
faith in the goodness of God.

Question. What were the last words of Jesus
Christ?

Answer. "My God, my God, why hast thou for-
"saken me?"

A VINDICATION OF THOMAS PAINE.

"To argue with a man who has renounced the use and
authority of reason, is like administering
medicine to the dead."—Thomas Paine.

Peoria, October 8, 1877.

To the Editor of the N Y. Observer:

Sir: Last June in San Francisco, I offered a
thousand dollars in gold—not as a wager, but as a
gift—to any one who would substantiate the absurd
story that Thomas Paine died in agony and fear,
frightened by the clanking chains of devils. I also
offered the same amount to any minister who would
prove that Voltaire did not pass away as serenely as
the coming of the dawn. Afterward I was informed
that you had accepted the offer, and had called upon
me to deposit the money. Acting upon this inform-
ation, I sent you the following letter:

Peoria, Ill., August 31st, 1877.

To the Editor of the New York Observer:

I have been informed that you accepted, in your
paper, an offer made by me to any clergyman in
San Francisco. That offer was, that I would pay

448

one thousand dollars in gold to any minister in that
city who would prove that Thomas Paine died in
terror because of religious opinions he had ex-
pressed, or that Voltaire did not pass away serenely
as the coming of the dawn.

For many years religious journals and ministers
have been circulating certain pretended accounts of
the frightful agonies endured by Paine and Voltaire
when dying; that these great men at the moment of
death were terrified because they had given their
honest opinions upon the subject of religion to their
fellow-men. The imagination of the religious world
has been taxed to the utmost in inventing absurd
and infamous accounts of the last moments of these
intellectual giants. Every Sunday school paper,
thousands of idiotic tracts, and countless stupidities
called sermons, have been filled with these calumnies.

Paine and Voltaire both believed in God—both
hoped for immortality—both believed in special
providence. But both denied the inspiration of the
Scriptures—both denied the divinity of Jesus Christ.
While theologians most cheerfully admit that most
murderers die without fear, they deny the possibility
of any man who has expressed his disbelief in the
inspiration of the Bible dying except in an agony of
terror. These stories are used in revivals and in

449

Sunday schools, and have long been considered of
great value.

I am anxious that these slanders shall cease. I
am desirous of seeing justice done, even at this late
day, to the dead.

For the purpose of ascertaining the evidence upon
which these death-bed accounts really rest, I make
to you the following proposition:—

First.—As to Thomas Paine: I will deposit with
the First National Bank of Peoria, Illinois, one thou-
sand dollars in gold, upon the following conditions:
This money shall be subject to your order when
you shall, in the manner hereinafter provided, sub-
stantiate that Thomas Paine admitted the Bible to be
an inspired book, or that he recanted his Infidel
opinions—or that he died regretting that he had dis-
believed the Bible—or that he died calling upon
Jesus Christ in any religious sense whatever.

In order that a tribunal may be created to try this
question, you may select one man, I will select
another, and the two thus chosen shall select a third,
and any two of the three may decide the matter.

As there will be certain costs and expenditures on
both sides, such costs and expenditures shall be paid
by the defeated party.

In addition to the one thousand dollars in gold, I

450

will deposit a bond with good and sufficient security
in the sum of two thousand dollars, conditioned for
the payment of all costs in case I am defeated. I
shall require of you a like bond.

From the date of accepting this offer you may
have ninety days to collect and present your testi-
mony, giving me notice of time and place of taking
depositions. I shall have a like time to take evi-
dence upon my side, giving you like notice, and you
shall then have thirty days to take further testimony
in reply to what I may offer. The case shall then
be argued before the persons chosen; and their
decisions shall be final as to us.

If the arbitrator chosen by me shall die, I shall
have the right to choose another. You shall have
the same right. If the third one, chosen by our two,
shall die, the two shall choose another; and all va-
cancies, from whatever cause, shall be filled upon the
same principle.

The arbitrators shall sit when and where a major-
ity shall determine, and shall have full power to pass
upon all questions arising as to competency of
evidence, and upon all subjects.

Second.—As to Voltaire: I make the same prop-
osition, if you will substantiate that Voltaire died
expressing remorse or showing in any way that he

451

was in mental agony because he had attacked Catholi-
cism—or because he had denied the inspiration of the
Bible—or because he had denied the divinity of Christ.

I make these propositions because I want you
to stop slandering the dead.

If the propositions do not suit you in any particu-
lar, please state your objections, and I will modify
them in any way consistent with the object in view.

If Paine and Voltaire died filled with childish and
silly fear, I want to know it, and I want the world to
know it. On the other hand, if the believers in
superstition have made and circulated these cruel
slanders concerning the mighty dead, I want the
world to know that.

As soon as you notify me of the acceptance of
these propositions I will send you the certificate of
the bank that the money has been deposited upon
the foregoing conditions, together with copies of
bonds for costs. Yours truly,

R. G. Ingersoll.

In your paper of September 27, 1877, you acknowl-
edge the receipt of the foregoing letter, and after
giving an outline of its contents, say: "As not one
of the affirmations, in the form stated in this letter,
was contained in the offer we made, we have no
occasion to substantiate them. But we are prepared

452

to produce the evidence of the truth of our own
statement, and even to go further; to show not only
that Tom Paine 'died a drunken, cowardly, and
beastly death,' but that for many years previous, and
up to that event he lived a drunken and beastly life."
In order to refresh your memory as to what you
had published, I call your attention to the following,
which appeared in the N. Y. Observer, July 19, 1877:
"Put Down the Money.

"Col. Bob Ingersoll, in a speech full of ribaldry
and blasphemy, made in San Francisco recently, said:
"I will give $1,000 in gold coin to any clergyman
who can substantiate that the death of Voltaire was
not as peaceful as the dawn; and of Tom Paine whom
they assert died in fear and agony, frightened by the
clanking chains of devils—in fact frightened to death
by God. I will give $1,000 likewise to any one who
can substantiate this 'absurd story'—a story without
a word of truth in it."

"We have published the testimony, and the wit-
nesses are on hand to prove that Tom Paine died a
drunken, cowardly and beastly death. Let the Colo-
nel deposit the money with any honest man, and the
absurd story, as he terms it, shall be shown to be an
ower true tale. But he wont do it. His talk is Infi-
del 'buncombe' and nothing more."

453

On the 31st of August I sent you my letter, and
on the 27th of September you say in your paper:
"As not one of the affirmations in the form stated
in this letter was contained in the offer we made, we
have no occasion to substantiate them."

What were the affirmations contained in the offer
you made? I had offered a thousand dollars in gold
to any one who would substantiate "the absurd story"
that Thomas Paine died in fear and agony,frightened
by the clanking chains of devils—in fact, frightened to
death by God.

In response to this offer you said: "Let the Colo-
nel deposit the money with an honest man and the
'absurd story' as he terms it, shall be shown to be
an 'ower true tale.' But he won't do it. His talk
is infidel 'buncombe' and nothing more."

Did you not offer to prove that Paine died in fear
and agony, frightened by the clanking chains of
devils? Did you not ask me to deposit the money
that you might prove the "absurd story" to be an
"ower true tale" and obtain the money? Did you
not in your paper of the twenty-seventh of September
in effect deny that you had offered to prove this
"absurd story"? As soon as I offered to deposit
the gold and give bonds besides to cover costs, did
you not publish a falsehood?

454

You have eaten your own words, and, for my
part, I would rather have dined with Ezekiel than
with you.

You have not met the issue. You have know-
ingly avoided it. The question was not as to the
personal habits of Paine. The real question was
and is, whether Paine was filled with fear and horror
at the time of his death on account of his religious
opinions. That is the question. You avoid this.
In effect, you abandon that charge and make others.

To you belongs the honor of having made the
most cruel and infamous charges against Thomas
Paine that have ever been made. Of what you
have said you cannot prove the truth of one word.

You say that Thomas Paine died a drunken,
cowardly and beastly death.

I pronounce this charge to be a cowardly and
beastly falsehood.

Have you any evidence that he was in a drunken
condition when he died?

What did he say or do of a cowardly character
just before, or at about the time of his death?

In what way was his death cowardly? You must
answer these questions, and give your proof, or all
honest men will hold you in abhorrence. You have
made these charges. The man against whom you

Vindication of thomas paine.

455

make them is dead. He cannot answer you. I
can. He cannot compel you to produce your testi-
mony, or admit by your silence that you have
cruelly slandered the defenceless dead. I can and I
will. You say that his death was cowardly. In
what respect? Was it cowardly in him to hold the
Thirty-Nine Articles in contempt? Was it cowardly
not to call on your Lord? Was it cowardly not to
be afraid? You say that his death was beastly.
Again I ask, in what respect? Was it beastly to
submit to the inevitable with tranquillity? Was it
beastly to look with composure upon the approach
of death? Was it beastly to die without a com-
plaint, without a murmur—to pass from life without
a fear?

Did Thomas Paine Recant?

Mr. Paine had prophesied that fanatics would
crawl and cringe around him during his last mo-
ments. He believed that they would put a lie in
the mouth of Death.

When the shadow of the coming dissolution was
upon him, two clergymen, Messrs. Milledollar and
Cunningham, called to annoy the dying man. Mr.
Cunningham had the politeness to say, "You have
now a full view of death you cannot live long, and
whosoever does not believe in the Lord Jesus Christ

456

will asuredly be damned." Mr. Paine replied, "Let
me have none of your popish stuff. Get away with
you. Good morning."

On another occasion a Methodist minister ob-
truded himself when Willet Hicks was present.
This minister declared to Mr. Paine "that unless he
repented of his unbelief he would be damned."
Paine, although at the door of death, rose in his bed
and indignantly requested the clergyman to leave
his room. On another occasion, two brothers by
the name of Pigott, sought to convert him. He was
displeased and requested their departure. After-
ward Thomas Nixon and Captain Daniel Pelton
visited him for the express purpose of ascertaining
whether he had, in any manner, changed his relig-
ious opinions. They were assured by the dying
man that he still held the principles he had expressed
in his writings.

Afterward, these gentlemen hearing that William
Cobbett was about to write a life of Paine, sent him
the following note:

New York, April 24, 1818.

"Sir: We have been informed that you have a de-
sign to write a history of the life and writings of
Thomas Paine. If you have been furnished with
materials in respect to his religious opinions, or

457

rather of his recantation of his former opinions before
his death, all you have heard of his recanting is false.
Being aware that such reports would be raised after
his death by fanatics who infested his house at the
time it was expected he would die, we, the subscrib-
ers, intimate acquaintances of Thomas Paine since
the year 1776, went to his house. He was sitting
up in a chair, and apparently in full vigor and use of
all his mental faculties. We interrogated him upon
his religious opinions, and if he had changed his
mind, or repented of anything he had said or wrote
on that subject. He answered, "Not at all," and
appeared rather offended at our supposition that any
change should take place in his mind. We took
down in writing the questions put to him and his
answers thereto before a number of persons then in
his room, among whom were his doctor, Mrs.
Bonneville, etc. paper is mislaid and cannot
be found at present, but the above is the substance
which can be attested by many living witnesses."

Thomas Nixon.

Daniel Pelton.

Mr. Jarvis, the artist, saw Mr. Paine one or two
days before his death. To Mr. Jarvis he expressed
his belief in his written opinions upon the subject of
religion. B. F. Haskin, an attorney of the city of

458

New York, also visited him and inquired as to his
religious opinions. Paine was then upon the thresh-
old of death, but he did not tremble. He was not a
coward. He expressed his firm and unshaken belief
in the religious ideas he had given to the world.

Dr. Manley was with him when he spoke his last
words. Dr. Manley asked the dying man if he did
not wish to believe that Jesus was the Son of God,
and the dying philosopher answered: "I have no
wish to believe on that subject." Amasa Woodsworth

sat up with Thomas Paine the night before his
death. In 1839 Gilbert Vale hearing that Mr.
Woodsworth was living in or near Boston, visited
him for the purpose of getting his statement. The
statement was published in the Beacon of June 5,
1839, while thousands who had been acquainted with
Mr. Paine were living.

The following is the article referred to.

"We have just returned from Boston. One ob-
ject of our visit to that city, was to see a Mr. Amasa
Woodsworth, an engineer, now retired in a hand-
some cottage and garden at East Cambridge, Boston.
This gentleman owned the house occupied by Paine
at his death—while he lived next door. As an act
of kindness Mr. Woodsworth visited Mr. Paine every
day for six weeks before his death. He frequently

459

sat up with him, and did so on the last two nights of
his life. He was always there with Dr. Manley, the
physician, and assisted in removing Mr. Paine while
his bed was prepared. He was present when Dr.
Manley asked Mr. Paine "if he wished to believe
that Jesus Christ was the Son of God," and he de-
scribes Mr. Paine's answer as animated. He says
that lying on his back he used some action and with
much emphasis, replied, "I have no wish to believe
on that subject." He lived some time after this, but
was not known to speak, for he died tranquilly. He
accounts for the insinuating style of Dr. Manley's
letter, by stating that that gentleman just after its
publication joined a church. He informs us that he
has openly reproved the doctor for the falsity con-
tained in the spirit of that letter, boldly declaring be-
fore Dr. Manley, who is yet living, that nothing
which he saw justified the insinuations. Mr. Woods-
worth assures us that he neither heard nor saw any-
thing to justify the belief of any mental change in
the opinions of Mr. Paine previous to his death; but
that being very ill and in pain chiefly arising from
the skin being removed in some parts by long lying,
he was generally too uneasy to enjoy conversation
on abstract subjects. This, then, is the best evidence
that can be procured on this subject, and we publish

460

it while the contravening parties are yet alive, and
with the authority of Mr. Woodsworth.

Gilbert Vale.

A few weeks ago I received the following letter
which confirms the statement of Mr. Vale:

Near Stockton, Cal., Green-
wood Cottage, July 9, 1877.

Col. Ingersoll: In 1842 I talked with a gentle-
man in Boston. I have forgotten his name; but he was
then an engineer of the Charleston navy yard. I am
thus particular so that you can find his name on the
books. He told me that he nursed Thomas Paine
in his last illness, and closed his eyes when dead. I
asked him if he recanted and called upon God to
save him. He replied, "No. He died as he had
taught. He had a sore upon his side and when we
turned him it was very painful and he would cry out
'O God!' or something like that." "But," said
the narrator, "that was nothing, for he believed in a
God." I told him that I had often heard it asserted
from the pulpit that Mr. Paine had recanted in his
last moments. The gentleman said that it was not
true, and he appeared to be an intelligent, truthful
man. With respect, I remain, etc.

Philip Graves, M. D.

461

The next witness is Willet Hicks, a Quaker
preacher. He says that during the last illness of
Mr. Paine he visited him almost daily, and that
Paine died firmly convinced of the truth of the relig-
ious opinions he had given to his fellow-men. It
was to this same Willet Hicks that Paine applied for
permission to be buried in the cemetery of the
Quakers. Permission was refused. This refusal
settles the question of recantation. If he had re-
canted, of course there could have been no objection
to his body being buried by the side of the best
hypocrites on the earth.

If Paine recanted why should he be denied "a
little earth for charity"? Had he recanted, it
would have been regarded as a vast and splendid
triumph for the gospel. It would with much noise
and pomp and ostentation have been heralded
about the world.

I received the following letter to-day. The
writer is well know in this city, and is a man of
high character:

Peoria, Oct. 8th, 1877.

Robert G. Ingersoll, Esteemed Friend: My
parents were Friends (Quakers). My father died
when I was very young. The elderly and middle-
aged Friends visited at my mother's house. We

462

lived in the city of New York. Among the number
I distinctly remember Elias Hicks, Willet Hicks,

and a Mr.-Day, who was a bookseller in Pearl

street. There were many others, whose names I
do not now remember. The subject of the recanta-
tion by Thomas Paine of his views about the Bible
in his last illness, or at any other time, was dis-
cussed by them in my presence at different times.
I learned from them that some of them had attended
upon Thomas Paine in his last sickness and minis-
tered to his wants up to the time of his death.
And upon the question of whether he did recant
there was but one expression. They all said that
he did not recant in any manner. I often heard
them say they wished he had recanted. In fact,
according to them, the nearer he approached death
the more positive he appeared to be in his con-
victions.

These conversations were from 1820 to 1822. I
was at that time from ten to twelve years old, but
these conversations impressed themselves upon me
because many thoughtless people then blamed the
Society of Friends for their kindness to that "arch
Infidel," Thomas Paine..

Truly yours,

A. C. Hankinson.

463

A few days ago I received the following letter:
Albany, New York, Sept. 27, 1877.

Dear Sir: It is over twenty years ago that pro-
fessionally I made the acquaintance of John Hogeboom,

a Justice of the Peace of the county of
Rensselaer, New York. He was then over seventy
years of age and had the reputation of being a man
of candor and integrity. He was a great admirer of
Paine. He told me that he was personally ac-
quainted with him, and used to see him frequently
during the last years of his life in the city of New
York, where Hogeboom then resided. I asked him
if there was any truth in the charge that Paine was
in the habit of getting drunk. He said that it was
utterly false; that he never heard of such a thing
during the life-time of Mr. Paine, and did not believe
any one else did. I asked him about the recantation
of his religious opinions on his death-bed, and the
revolting death-bed scenes that the world had heard
so much about. He said there was no truth in
them, that he had received his information from
persons who attended Paine in his last illness, "and
that he passed peacefully away, as we may say, in
the sunshine of a great soul."...

Yours truly,

W. J. Hilton,

464

The witnesses by whom I substantiate the fact
that Thomas Paine did not recant, and that he died
holding the religious opinions he had published, are:
First—Thomas Nixon, Captain Daniel Pelton,
B. F. Haskin. These gentlemen visited him during
his last illness for the purpose of ascertaining whether
he had in any respect changed his views upon relig-
ion. He told them that he had not.

Second—James Cheetham. This man was the
most malicious enemy Mr. Paine had, and yet he
admits that "Thomas Paine died placidly, and al-
most without a struggle." (See Life of Thomas
Paine, by James Cheetham).

Third—The ministers, Milledollar and Cunning-
ham. These gentlemen told Mr. Paine that if he
died without believing in the Lord Jesus Christ he
would be damned, and Paine replied, "Let me have
none of your popish stuff. Good morning." (See
Sherwin's Life of Paine, p. 220).

Fourth—Mrs. Hedden. She told these same
preachers when they attempted to obtrude them-
selves upon Mr. Paine again, that the attempt to
convert Mr. Paine was useless—"that if God did not
change his mind no human power could."

Fifth—Andrew A. Dean. This man lived upon
Paine's farm at New Rochelle, and corresponded

465

with him upon religious subjects. (See Paine's
Theological Works, p. 308.)

Sixth—Mr. Jarvis, the artist with whom Paine
lived. He gives an account of an old lady coming
to Paine and telling him that God Almighty had
sent her to tell him that unless he repented and be-
lieved in the blessed Savior, he would be damned.
Paine replied that God would not send such a foolish
old woman with such an impertinent message. (See
Clio Rickman's Life of Paine.)

Seventh—Wm. Carver, with whom Paine boarded.
Mr. Carver said again and again that Paine did not
recant. He knew him well, and had every opportun-
ity of knowing. (See Life of Paine by Gilbert Vale.)

Eighth—Dr. Manley, who attended him in his last
sickness, and to whom Paine spoke his last words.
Dr. Manley asked him if he did not wish to believe in
Jesus Christ, and he replied, "I have no wish to
believe on that subject."

Ninth—Willet Hicks and Elias Hicks, who were
with him frequently during his last sickness, and
both of whom tried to persuade him to recant. Ac-
cording to their testimony, Mr. Paine died as he had
lived—a believer in God, and a friend of man.
Willet Hicks was offered money to say something
false against Thomas Paine. He was even offered

466

money to remain silent and allow others to slander
the dead. Mr. Hicks, speaking of Thomas Paine,
said: "He was a good man—an honest man."
(Vale's Life of Paine.)

Tenth—Amasa Woodsworth, who was with him
every day for some six weeks immediately preceding
his death, and sat up with him the last two nights of
his life. This man declares that Paine did not recant
and that he died tranquilly. The evidence of Mr.
Woodsworth is conclusive.

Eleventh—Thomas Paine himself. The will of
Thomas Paine, written by himself, commences as
follows:

"The last will and testament of me, the subscriber,
Thomas Paine, reposing confidence in my creator
God, and in no other being, for I know of no other,
nor believe in any other;" and closes in these words;
"I have lived an honest and useful life to mankind;
my time has been spent in doing good, and I die in
perfect composure and resignation to the will of my
creator God."

Twelfth—If Thomas Paine recanted, why do you
pursue him? If he recanted, he died substantially
in your belief, for what reason then do you denounce
his death as cowardly? If upon his death-bed he
renounced the opinions he had published, the busi-

467

ness of defaming him should be done by Infidels, not
by Christians.

I ask you if it is honest to throw away the testi-
mony of his friends—the evidence of fair and honor-
able men—and take the putrid words of avowed and
malignant enemies?

When Thomas Paine was dying, he was infested
by fanatics—by the snaky spies of bigotry. In the
shadows of death were the unclean birds of prey
waiting to tear with beak and claw the corpse of him
who wrote the "Rights of Man." And there lurk-
ing and crouching in the darkness were the jackals
and hyenas of superstition ready to violate his grave.

These birds of prey—these unclean beasts are the
witnesses produced and relied upon by you.

One by one the instruments of torture have been
wrenched from the cruel clutch of the church, until
within the armory of orthodoxy there remains but
one weapon—Slander.

Against the witnesses that I have produced you
can bring just two—Mary Roscoe and Mary Hins-
dale. The first is referred to in the memoir of
Stephen Grellet. She had once been a servant in his
house. Grellet tells what happened between this
girl and Paine. According to this account Paine
asked her if she had ever read any of his writings,

468

and on being told that she had read very little of
them, he inquired what she thought of them, adding
that from such an one as she he expected a correct
answer.

Let us examine this falsehood. Why would Paine
expect a correct answer about his writings from one
who had read very little of them? Does not such a
statement devour itself? This young lady further
said that the "Age of Reason" was put in her hands
and that the more she read in it the more dark and
distressed she felt, and that she threw the book into
the fire. Whereupon Mr. Paine remarked, "I wish
all had done as you did, for if the devil ever had any
agency in any work, he had it in my writing that book."

The next is Mary Hinsdale. She was a servant
in the family of Willet Hicks. She, like Mary Ros-
coe, was sent to carry some delicacy to Mr. Paine.
To this young lady Paine, according to her account,
said precisely the same that he did to Mary Roscoe,
and she said the same thing to Mr. Paine.

My own opinion is that Mary Roscoe and Mary
Hinsdale are one and the same person, or the same
story has been by mistake put in the mouth of both.

It is not possible that the same conversation should
have taken place between Paine and Mary Roscoe,
and between him and Mary Hinsdale.

469

Mary Hinsdale lived with Willet Hicks and he
pronounced her story a pious fraud and fabrication.
He said that Thomas Paine never said any such
thing to Mary Hinsdale. (See Vale's Life of
Paine.)

Another thing about this witness. A woman by
the name of Mary Lockwood, a Hicksite Quaker,
died. Mary Hinsdale met her brother about that
time and told him that his sister had recanted, and
wanted her to say so at her funeral. This turned
out to be false.

It has been claimed that Mary Hinsdale made her
statement to Charles Collins. Long after the alleged
occurrence Gilbert Vale, one of the biographers of
Paine, had a conversation with Collins concerning
Mary Hinsdale. Vale asked him what he thought
of her. He replied that some of the Friends be-
lieved that she used opiates, and that they did not
give credit to her statements. He also said that he
believed what the Friends said, but thought that
when a young woman, she might have told the
truth.

In 1818 William Cobbett came to New York.
He began collecting materials for a life of Thomas
Paine. In this he became acquainted with Mary
Hinsdale and Charles Collins. Mr. Cobbett gave a

470

full account of what happened in a letter addressed
to the Norwich Mercury in 1819. From this ac-
count it seems that Charles Collins told Cobbett that
Paine had recanted. Cobbett called for the testi-
mony, and told Mr. Collins that he must give time,
place, and the circumstances. He finally brought a
statement that he stated had been made by Mary
Hinsdale. Armed with this document Cobbett, in
October of that year, called upon the said Mary
Hinsdale, at No. 10 Anthony street, New York, and
showed her the statement. Upon being questioned
by Mr. Cobbett she said, "That it was so long ago
that she could not speak positively to any part of the
matter—that she would not say that any part of the
paper was true—that she had never seen the paper
—and that she had never given Charles Collins
authority to say anything about the matter in her
name." And so in the month of October, in the
year of grace 1818, in the mist and fog of forgetful-
ness disappeared forever one Mary Hinsdale—the
last and only witness against the intellectual honesty
of Thomas Paine.

Did Thomas Paine live the life of a drunken beast,
and did he die a drunken, cowardly and beastly death?

Upon you rests the burden of substantiating these
infamous charges.

471

You have, I suppose, produced the best evidence
in your possession, and that evidence I will now pro-
ceed to examine. Your first witness is Grant Thor-
burn. He makes three charges against Thomas
Paine, 1st. That his wife obtained a divorce from
him in England for cruelty and neglect. 2d. That
he was a defaulter and fled from England to Amer-
ica. 3d. That he was a drunkard.

These three charges stand upon the same evidence
—the word of Grant Thorburn. If they are not all
true Mr. Thorburn stands impeached.

The charge that Mrs. Paine obtained a divorce on
account of the cruelty and neglect of her husband is
utterly false. There is no such record in the world,
and never was. Paine and his wife separated by
mutual consent. Each respected the other. They
remained friends. This charge is without any foun-
dation in fact. I challenge the Christian world to
produce the record of this decree of divorce. Accord-
ing to Mr. Thorburn it was granted in England. In
that country public records are kept of all such de-
crees. Have the kindness to produce this decree
showing that it was given on account of cruelty or
admit that Mr. Thorburn was mistaken.

Thomas Paine was a just man. Although sepa-
rated from his wife, he always spoke of her with

472