← The Works of Robert G. Ingersoll, Complete Contents / Dresden Edition—Twelve Volumes, Volume 1

Contents (part 1)

The Works of Robert G. Ingersoll "There Can Be But Little Liberty On Earth While Men Worship A Tyrant In Heaven." In Twelve Volumes, Volume V.

Discussions

1900

Dresden Edition

CONTENTS OF VOLUME V.

SIX INTERVIEWS ON TALMAGE.

(1882.)

Preface—First Interview: Great Men as Witnesses
to the Truth of the Gospel—No man should quote
the Words of Another unless he is willing to
Accept all the Opinions of that Man—Reasons of
more Weight than Reputations—Would a general
Acceptance of Unbelief fill the Penitentiaries?—
My Creed—Most Criminals Orthodox—Relig-ion and
Morality not Necessarily Associates—On the
Creation of the Universe out of Omnipotence—Mr.
Talmage's Theory about the Pro-duction of Light
prior to the Creation of the Sun—The Deluge and
the Ark—Mr. Talmage's tendency to Belittle the
Bible Miracles—His Chemical, Geological, and
Agricultural Views—His Disregard of Good Manners-
-Second Interview: An Insulting Text—God's Design
in Creating Guiteau to be the Assassin of
Garfield—Mr. Talmage brings the Charge of
Blasphemy—Some Real Blasphemers—The Tabernacle
Pastor tells the exact Opposite of the Truth about
Col. Ingersoll's Attitude toward the Circulation
of Immoral Books—"Assassinating" God—Mr.
Talmage finds Nearly All the Invention of Modern
Times Mentioned in the Bible—The Reverend
Gentleman corrects the Translators of the Bible in
the Matter of the Rib Story—Denies that Polygamy
is permitted by the Old Testament—His De-fence of
Queen Victoria and Violation of the Grave of
George Eliot—Exhibits a Christian Spirit—Third
Interview: Mr. Talmage's Partiality in the
Bestowal of his Love—Denies the Right of Laymen
to Examine the Scriptures—Thinks the Infidels
Victims of Bibliophobia —He explains the Stopping
of the Sun and Moon at the Command of Joshua—
Instances a Dark Day in the Early Part of the
Century—Charges that Holy Things are Made Light
of—Reaffirms his Confidence in the Whale and
Jonah Story—The Commandment which Forbids the
making of Graven Images—Affirmation that the
Bible is the Friend of Woman—The Present
Condition of Woman—Fourth Interview: Colonel
Ingersoll Compared by Mr. Talmage tojehoiakim, who
Consigned Writings of Jeremiah to the Flames—An
Intimation that Infidels wish to have all copies
of the Bible Destroyed by Fire—Laughter
Deprecated—Col. Ingersoll Accused of Denouncing
his Father—Mr. Talmage holds that a Man may be
Perfectly Happy in Heaven with His Mother in Hell-
-Challenges the Infidel to Read a Chapter from St.
John—On the "Chief Solace of the World"—Dis-
covers an Attempt is being made to Put Out the
Light-houses of the Farther Shore—Affirms our
Debt to Christianity for Schools, Hospitals,
etc.—Denies that Infidels have ever Done any
Good—

Fifth Interview: Inquiries if Men gather Grapes of
Thorns, or Figs of Thistles, and is Answered in
the Negative—Resents the Charge that the Bible is
a Cruel Book—Demands to Know where the Cruelty of
the Bible Crops out in the Lives of Christians—
Col. Ingersoll Accused of saying that the Bible
is a Collection of Polluted Writings—Mr. Talmage
Asserts the Orchestral Harmony of the Scriptures
from Genesis to Revelation, and Repudiates the
Theory of Contradictions—His View of Mankind
Indicated in Quotations from his Confession of
Faith—He Insists that the Bible is Scientific—
Traces the New Testament to its Source with St.
John—Pledges his Word that no Man ever Died for a
Lie Cheerfully and Triumphantly—As to Prophecies
and Predictions—Alleged "Prophetic" Fate of the
Jewish People—Sixth Interview: Dr. Talmage takes
the Ground that the Unrivalled Circulation of the
Bible Proves that it is Inspired—Forgets' that a
Scientific Fact does not depend on the Vote of
Numbers—Names some Christian Millions—His
Arguments Characterized as the Poor-est, Weakest,
and Best Possible in Support of the Doctrine of
Inspira-tion—Will God, in Judging a Man, take
into Consideration the Cir-cumstances of that
Man's Life?—Satisfactory Reasons for Not Believ-
ing that the Bible is inspired.

THE TALMAGIAN CATECHISM.

The Pith and Marrow of what Mr. Talmage has been
Pleased to Say, set forth in the form of a Shorter
Catechism.

A VINDICATION OF THOMAS PAINE.

(1877.)

Letter to the New York Observer—An Offer to Pay
One Thousand Dollars in Gold for Proof that Thomas
Paine or Voltaire Died in Terror because of any
Religious Opinions Either had Expressed—
Proposition to Create a Tribunal to Hear the
Evidence—The Ob-server, after having Called upon
Col. Ingersoll to Deposit the Money, and
Characterized his Talk as "Infidel 'Buncombe,'"
Denies its Own Words, but attempts to Prove them—
Its Memory Refreshed by Col. Ingersoll and the
Slander Refuted—Proof that Paine did Not Recant -
-Testimony of Thomas Nixon, Daniel Pelton, Mr.
Jarvis, B. F. Has-kin, Dr. Manley, Amasa
Woodsworth, Gilbert Vale, Philip Graves, M. D.,
Willet Hicks, A. C. Hankinson, John Hogeboom, W.
J. Hilton, Tames Cheetham, Revs. Milledollar and
Cunningham, Mrs. Hedden, Andrew A. Dean, William
Carver,—The Statements of Mary Roscoe and Mary
Hindsdale Examined—William Cobbett's Account of a
Call upon Mary Hinsdale—Did Thomas Paine live the
Life of a Drunken Beast, and did he Die a Drunken,
Cowardly, and Beastly Death?—Grant Thorbum's
Charges Examined—Statement of the Rev. J. D.
Wickham, D.D., shown to be Utterly False—False
Witness of the Rev. Charles Hawley, D.D.—W. H.
Ladd, James Cheetham, and Mary Hinsdale—Paine's
Note to Cheetham—Mr-Staple, Mr. Purdy, Col. John
Fellows, James Wilburn, Walter Morton, Clio
Rickman, Judge Herttell, H. Margary, Elihu Palmer,
Mr.

Lovett, all these Testified that Paine was a
Temperate Man—Washington's Letter to Paine—
Thomas Jefferson's—Adams and Washing-ton on
"Common Sense"—-James Monroe's Tribute—
Quotations from Paine—Paine's Estate and His
Will—The Observer's Second Attack (p. 492):
Statements of Elkana Watson, William Carver, Rev.
E. F. Hatfield, D.D., James Cheetham, Dr. J. W.
Francis, Dr. Manley, Bishop Fenwick—Ingersoll's
Second Reply (p. 516): Testimony Garbled by the
Editor of the Observer—Mary Roscoeand Mary Hins-
dale the Same Person—Her Reputation for Veracity-
-Letter from Rev. A. W. Cornell—Grant Thorburn
Exposed by James Parton—The Observer's Admission
that Paine did not Recant—Affidavit of

William B. Barnes.

PREFACE

SEVERAL people, having read the sermons of
Mr. Talmage in which he reviews some of my
lectures, have advised me not to pay the slightest
attention to the Brooklyn divine. They think that
no new arguments have been brought forward, and
they have even gone so far as to say that some of
the best of the old ones have been left out.

After thinking the matter over, I became satisfied
that my friends were mistaken, that they had been car-
ried away by the general current of modern thought,
and were not in a frame of mind to feel the force
of the arguments of Mr. Talmage, or to clearly see
the candor that characterizes his utterances.

At the first reading, the logic of these sermons does
not impress you. The style is of a character calculated

to throw the searcher after facts and arguments off
his guard. The imagination of the preacher is so
lurid; he is so free from the ordinary forms of ex-
pression; his statements are so much stranger than
truth, and his conclusions so utterly independent of
his premises, that the reader is too astonished to
be convinced. Not until I had read with great care
the six discourses delivered for my benefit had I any
clear and well-defined idea of the logical force of
Mr. Talmage. I had but little conception of his
candor, was almost totally ignorant of his power to
render the simple complex and the plain obscure by
the mutilation of metaphor and the incoherence
of inspired declamation. Neither did I know the
generous accuracy with which he states the position
of an opponent, and the fairness he exhibits in a
religious discussion.

He has without doubt studied the Bible as closely
and critically as he has the works of Buckle and
Darwin, and he seems to have paid as much attention
to scientific subjects as most theologians. His theory
of light and his views upon geology are strikingly
original, and his astronomical theories are certainly as
profound as practical. If his statements can be relied
upon, he has successfully refuted the teachings of

VII

Humboldt and Haeckel, and exploded the blunders of
Spencer and Tyndall. Besides all this, he has the
courage of his convictions—he does not quail before a
fact, and he does not strike his colors even to a dem-
onstration. He cares nothing for human experience.
He cannot be put down with statistics, nor driven
from his position by the certainties of science. He
cares neither for the persistence of force, nor the
indestructibility of matter.

He believes in the Bible, and he has the bravery
to defend his belief. In this, he proudly stands
almost alone. He knows that the salvation of the
world depends upon a belief in his creed. He
knows that what are called "the sciences" are of
no importance in the other world. He clearly sees
that it is better to live and die ignorant here, if you
can wear a crown of glory hereafter. He knows it
is useless to be perfectly familiar with all the sciences
in this world, and then in the next "lift up your eyes,
being in torment." He knows, too, that God will
not punish any man for denying a fact in science.
A man can deny the rotundity of the earth, the
attraction of gravitation, the form of the earths orbit,
or the nebular hypothesis, with perfect impunity.
He is not bound to be correct upon any philo-

VIII

sophical subject. He is at liberty to deny and ridi-
cule the rule of three, conic sections, and even the
multiplication table. God permits every human
being to be mistaken upon every subject but one.
No man can lose his soul by denying physical facts.
Jehovah does not take the slightest pride in his geology,

or in his astronomy, or in mathematics, or in
any school of philosophy—he is jealous only of his
reputation as the author of the Bible. You may deny
everything else in the universe except that book.
This being so, Mr. Talmage takes the safe side, and
insists that the Bible is inspired. He knows that at
the day of judgment, not a scientific question will be
asked. He knows that the Hæckels and Huxleys
will, on that terrible day, regret that they ever
learned to read. He knows that there is no "saving
grace" in any department of human knowledge; that
mathematics and all the exact sciences and all the
philosophies will be worse than useless. He knows
that inventors, discoverers, thinkers and investigators,
have no claim upon the mercy of Jehovah; that the
educated will envy the ignorant, and that the writers
and thinkers will curse their books.

He knows that man cannot be saved through
what he knows—but only by means of what he

believes. Theology is not a science. If it were,
God would forgive his children for being mistaken
about it. If it could be proved like geology, or
astronomy, there would be no merit in believing it.
From a belief in the Bible, Mr. Talmage is not to be
driven by uninspired evidence. He knows that his
logic is liable to lead him astray, and that his reason
cannot be depended upon. He believes that scien-
tific men are no authority in matters concerning
which nothing can be known, and he does not wish
to put his soul in peril, by examining by the light of
reason, the evidences of the supernatural.

He is perfectly consistent with his creed. What
happens to us here is of no consequence compared
with eternal joy or pain. The ambitions, honors,
glories and triumphs of this world, compared with
eternal things, are less than naught.

Better a cross here and a crown there, than a feast
here and a fire there.

Lazarus was far more fortunate than Dives. The
purple and fine linen of this short life are as nothing
compared with the robes of the redeemed.

Mr. Talmage knows that philosophy is unsafe—
that the sciences are sirens luring souls to eternal
wreck. He knows that the deluded searchers after

facts are planting thorns in their own pillows—that
the geologists are digging pits for themselves, and
that the astronomers are robbing their souls of the
heaven they explore. He knows that thought, capa-
city, and intellectual courage are dangerous, and this
belief gives him a feeling of personal security.

The Bible is adapted to the world as it is. Most
people are ignorant, and but few have the capacity to
comprehend philosophical and scientific subjects, and
if salvation depended upon understanding even one
of the sciences, nearly everybody would be lost.
Mr. Talmage sees that it was exceedingly merciful in
God to base salvation on belief instead of on brain.
Millions can believe, while only a few can understand.
Even the effort to understand is a kind of treason
born of pride and ingratitude. This being so, it is far
safer, far better, to be credulous than critical. You are
offered an infinite reward for believing the Bible. If
you examine it you may find it impossible for you to
believe it. Consequently, examination is dangerous.
Mr. Talmage knows that it is not necessary to under-
stand the Bible in order to believe it. You must be-
lieve it first. Then, if on reading it you find anything
that appears false, absurd, or impossible, you may
be sure that it is only an appearance, and that the real

fault is in yourself. It is certain that persons wholly
incapable of reasoning are absolutely safe, and that
to be born brainless is to be saved in advance.

Mr. Talmage takes the ground,—and certainly from
his point of view nothing can be more reasonable
—that thought should be avoided, after one has
"experienced religion" and has been the subject of
"regeneration." Every sinner should listen to ser-
mons, read religious books, and keep thinking, until
he becomes a Christian. Then he should stop. After
that, thinking is not the road to heaven. The real
point and the real difficulty is to stop thinking just at
the right time. Young Christians, who have no idea
of what they are doing, often go on thinking after
joining the church, and in this way heresy is born, and
heresy is often the father of infidelity. If Christians
would follow the advice and example of Mr. Talmage
all disagreements about doctrine would be avoided.
In this way the church could secure absolute in-
tellectual peace and all the disputes, heartburnings,
jealousies and hatreds born of thought, discussion
and reasoning, would be impossible.

In the estimation of Mr. Talmage, the man who
doubts and examines is not fit for the society of
angels. There are no disputes, no discussions in

XII

heaven. The angels do not think; they believe,
they enjoy. The highest form of religion is re-
pression. We should conquer the passions and
destroy desire. We should control the mind and
stop thinking. In this way we "offer ourselves a
"living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God." When
desire dies, when thought ceases, we shall be pure.
—This is heaven.

Robert G. Ingersoll.

Washington, D. C,

April; 1882.

INGERSOLL'S INTERVIEWS ON TALMAGE.

FIRST INTERVIEW.

Polonius. My lord, I will use them according to
their desert.

Hamlet. God's bodikins, man, much better: use
every man after his desert, and who should 'scape
whipping? Use them after your own honor and
dignity: the less they deserve, the more merit is
in your bounty.

Question. Have you read the sermon of

Mr. Talmage, in which he exposes your mis-
representations?

Answer. I have read such reports as appeared in
some of the New York papers.

Question. What do you think of what he has
to say?

Answer. Some time ago I gave it as my opinion
of Mr. Talmage that, while he was a man of most
excellent judgment, he was somewhat deficient in
imagination. I find that he has the disease that seems

to afflict most theologians, and that is, a kind of intel-
lectual toadyism, that uses the names of supposed great
men instead of arguments. It is perfectly astonishing
to the average preacher that any one should have the
temerity to differ, on the subject of theology, with
Andrew Jackson, Daniel Webster, and other gentlemen
eminent for piety during their lives, but who,
as a rule, expressed their theological opinions a few
minutes before dissolution. These ministers are per-
fectly delighted to have some great politician, some
judge, soldier, or president, certify to the truth of the
Bible and to the moral character of Jesus Christ.

Mr. Talmage insists that if a witness is false in one
particular, his entire testimony must be thrown away.
Daniel Webster was in favor of the Fugitive Slave
Law, and thought it the duty of the North to capture
the poor slave-mother. He was willing to stand
between a human being and his freedom. He was
willing to assist in compelling persons to work without
any pay except such marks of the lash as they might
receive. Yet this man is brought forward as a witness
for the truth of the gospel. If he was false in his
testimony as to liberty, what is his affidavit worth as
to the value of Christianity? Andrew Jackson was a
brave man, a good general, a patriot second to none,

an excellent judge of horses, and a brave duelist. I
admit that in his old age he relied considerably upon
the atonement. I think Jackson was really a very great
man, and probably no President impressed himself
more deeply upon the American people than the hero
of New Orleans, but as a theologian he was, in my
judgment, a most decided failure, and his opinion as
to the authenticity of the Scriptures is of no earthly
value. It was a subject upon which he knew probably
as little as Mr. Talmage does about modern infidelity.
Thousands of people will quote Jackson in favor of
religion, about which he knew nothing, and yet have
no confidence in his political opinions, although he
devoted the best part of his life to politics.

No man should quote the words of another, in place
of an argument, unless he is willing to accept all the
opinions of that man. Lord Bacon denied the Copernican

system of astronomy, and, according to Mr.
Talmage, having made that mistake, his opinions upon
other subjects are equally worthless. Mr. Wesley
believed in ghosts, witches, and personal devils, yet
upon many subjects I have no doubt his opinions were
correct. The truth is, that nearly everybody is right
about some things and wrong about most things; and
if a man's testimony is not to be taken until he is

right on every subject, witnesses will be extremely
scarce.

Personally, I care nothing about names. It makes
no difference to me what the supposed great men of
the past have said, except as what they have said
contains an argument; and that argument is worth to
me the force it naturally has upon my mind. Chris-
tians forget that in the realm of reason there are no
serfs and no monarchs. When you submit to an
argument, you do not submit to the man who made it.
Christianity demands a certain obedience, a certain
blind, unreasoning faith, and parades before the eyes
of the ignorant, with great pomp and pride, the names
of kings, soldiers, and statesmen who have admitted
the truth of the Bible. Mr. Talmage introduces as a
witness the Rev. Theodore Parker. This same The-
odore Parker denounced the Presbyterian creed as
the most infamous of all creeds, and said that the worst
heathen god, wearing a necklace of live snakes, was a
representation of mercy when compared with the God
of John Calvin. Now, if this witness is false in any
particular, of course he cannot be believed, according
to Mr. Talmage, upon any subject, and yet Mr.
Talmage introduces him upon the stand as a good
witness.

Although I care but little for names, still I will sug-
gest that, in all probability, Humboldt knew more upon
this subject than all the pastors in the world. I cer-
tainly would have as much confidence in the opinion
of Goethe as in that of William H. Seward; and as
between Seward and Lincoln, I should take Lincoln;
and when you come to Presidents, for my part, if I
were compelled to pin my faith on the sleeve of any-
body, I should take Jefferson's coat in preference to
Jackson's. I believe that Haeckel is, to say the least,
the equal of any theologian we have in this country,
and the late John W. Draper certainly knew as much
upon these great questions as the average parson. I
believe that Darwin has investigated some of these
things, that Tyndall and Huxley have turned their
minds somewhat in the same direction, that Helmholtz
has a few opinions, and that, in fact, thousands of able,
intelligent and honest men differ almost entirely with
Webster and Jackson.

So far as I am concerned, I think more of reasons
than of reputations, more of principles than of persons,
more of nature than of names, more of facts, than of
faiths.

It is the same with books as with persons. Proba-
bly there is not a book in the world entirely destitute

of truth, and not one entirely exempt from error.
The Bible is like other books. There are mistakes in
it, side by side with truths,—passages inculcating
murder, and others exalting mercy; laws devilish and
tyrannical, and others filled with wisdom and justice.
It is foolish to say that if you accept a part, you must
accept the whole. You must accept that which com-
mends itself to your heart and brain. There never was
a doctrine that a witness, or a book, should be thrown
entirely away, because false in one particular. If in
any particular the book, or the man, tells the truth, to
that extent the truth should be accepted.

Truth is made no worse by the one who tells it,
and a lie gets no real benefit from the reputation of its
author.

Question. What do you think of the statement
that a general belief in your teachings would fill all
the penitentiaries, and that in twenty years there
would be a hell in this world worse than the one
expected in the other?

Answer. My creed is this:

1. Happiness is the only good.

2. The way to be happy, is to make others happy.

Other things being equal, that man is happiest who is
nearest just—who is truthful, merciful and intelligent—
in other words, the one who lives in accordance with
the conditions of life.

3. The time to be happy is now, and the place to
be happy, is here.

4. Reason is the lamp of the mind—the only torch
of progress; and instead of blowing that out and de-
pending upon darkness and dogma, it is far better to
increase that sacred light.

5. Every man should be the intellectual proprietor
of himself, honest with himself, and intellectually
hospitable; and upon every brain reason should be
enthroned as king.

6. Every man must bear the consequences, at
least of his own actions. If he puts his hands in
the fire, his hands must smart, and not the hands of
another. In other words: each man must eat the
fruit of the tree he plants.

I can not conceive that the teaching of these doc-
trines would fill penitentiaries, or crowd the gallows.
The doctrine of forgiveness—the idea that somebody
else can suffer in place of the guilty—the notion that
just at the last the whole account can be settled—
these ideas, doctrines, and notions are calculated to fill

penitentiaries. Nothing breeds extravagance like the
credit system.

Most criminals of the present day are orthodox be-
lievers, and the gallows seems to be the last round of
the ladder reaching from earth to heaven. The Rev.
Dr. Sunderland, of this city, in his sermon on the assas-
sination of Garfield, takes the ground that God per-
mitted the murder for the purpose of opening the eyes
of the people to the evil effects of infidelity. Accord-
ing to this minister, God, in order to show his hatred
of infidelity, "inspired," or allowed, one Christian to
assassinate another.

Religion and morality do not necessarily go together.
Mr. Talmage will insist to-day that morality is not
sufficient to save any man from eternal punishment.
As a matter of fact, religion has often been the enemy
of morality. The moralist has been denounced by the
theologians. He sustains the same relation to Chris-
tianity that the moderate drinker does to the total-
abstinence society. The total-abstinence people say
that the example of the moderate drinker is far worse
upon the young than that of the drunkard—that the
drunkard is a warning, while the moderate drinker is
a perpetual temptation. So Christians say of moral-
ists. According to them, the moralist sets a worse

example than the criminal. The moralist not only in-
sists that a man can be a good citizen, a kind husband,
an affectionate father, without religion, but demon-
strates the truth of his doctrine by his own life;
whereas the criminal admits that in and of himself he
is nothing, and can do nothing, but that he needs
assistance from the church and its ministers.

The worst criminals of the modern world have been
Christians—I mean by that, believers in Christianity—
and the most monstrous crimes of the modern world
have been committed by the most zealous believers.
There is nothing in orthodox religion, apart from the
morality it teaches, to prevent the commission oF crime.
On the other hand, the perpetual proffer of forgiveness
is a direct premium upon what Christians are pleased
to call the commission of sin.

Christianity has produced no greater character than
Epictetus, no greater sovereign than Marcus Aurelius.
The wickedness of the past was a good deal like that
of the present. As a rule, kings have been wicked in
direct proportion to their power—their power having
been lessened, their crimes have decreased. As a
matter of fact, paganism, of itself, did not produce any
great men; neither has Christianity. Millions of in-
fluences determine individual character, and the re-

ligion of the country in which a man happens to be
born may determine many of his opinions, without
influencing, to any great extent, his real character.

There have been brave, honest, and intelligent men
in and out of every church.

Question. Mr. Talmage says that you insist that,
according to the Bible, the universe was made out of
nothing, and he denounces your statement as a gross
misrepresentation. What have you stated upon that
subject?

Answer. What I said was substantially this: "We
"are told in the first chapter of Genesis, that in the
"beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
"If this means anything, it means that God pro-
"duced—caused to exist, called into being—the
"heaven and the earth. It will not do to say that
"God formed the heaven and the earth of previously
"existing matter. Moses conveys, and intended to
"convey, the idea that the matter of which the
"universe is composed was created."

This has always been my position. I did not sup-
pose that nothing was used as the raw material; but

if the Mosaic account means anything, it means that
whereas there was nothing, God caused something to

exist—created what we know as matter. I can not
conceive of something being made, created, without
anything to make anything with. I have no more
confidence in fiat worlds than I have in fiat money.
Mr. Talmage tells us that God did not make the uni-
verse out of nothing, but out of "omnipotence."
Exactly how God changed "omnipotence" into matter
is not stated. If there was nothing in the universe,
omnipotence could do you no good. The weakest man
in the world can lift as much nothing as God.

Mr. Talmage seems to think that to create something
from nothing is simply a question of strength—that it
requires infinite muscle—that it is only a question of
biceps. Of course, omnipotence is an attribute, not an
entity, not a raw material; and the idea that something
can be made out of omnipotence—using that as the
raw material—is infinitely absurd. It would have
been equally logical to say that God made the universe
out of his omniscience, or his omnipresence, or his
unchangeableness, or out of his honesty, his holiness,
or his incapacity to do evil. I confess my utter in-
ability to understand, or even to suspect, what the
reverend gentleman means, when he says that God
created the universe out of his "omnipotence."

I admit that the Bible does not tell when God created

the universe. It is simply said that he did this "in the
beginning." We are left, however, to infer that "the
beginning" was Monday morning, and that on the
first Monday God created the matter in an exceedingly
chaotic state; that on Tuesday he made a firmament
to divide the waters from the waters; that on Wednes-
day he gathered the waters together in seas and
allowed the dry land to appear. We are also told that
on that day "the earth brought forth grass and herb
"yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding
"fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind." This
was before the creation of the sun, but Mr. Talmage
takes the ground that there are many other sources of
light; that "there may have been volcanoes in active
operation on other planets." I have my doubts,
however, about the light of volcanoes being sufficient
to produce or sustain vegetable life, and think it a
little doubtful about trees growing only by "volcanic
glare." Neither do I think one could depend upon
"three thousand miles of liquid granite" for the pro-
duction of grass and trees, nor upon "light that rocks
might emit in the process of crystallization." I doubt
whether trees would succeed simply with the assistance
of the "Aurora Borealis or the Aurora Australis."
There are other sources of light, not mentioned by

Mr. Talmage—lightning-bugs, phosphorescent beetles,
and fox-fire. I should think that it would be humili-
ating, in this age, for an orthodox preacher to insist
that vegetation could exist upon this planet without the
light of the sun—that trees could grow, blossom and
bear fruit, having no light but the flames of volcanoes,
or that emitted by liquid granite, or thrown off by the
crystallization of rocks.

There is another thing, also, that should not be for-
gotten, and that is, that there is an even balance for-
ever kept between the totals of animal and vegetable
life—that certain forms of animal life go with certain
forms of vegetable life. Mr. Haeckel has shown that
"in the first epoch, algæ and skull-less vertebrates
were found together; in the second, ferns and fishes;
in the third, pines and reptiles; in the fourth, foliaceous

forests and mammals." Vegetable and animal
life sustain a necessary relation; they exist together;
they act and interact, and each depends upon the other.
The real point of difference between Mr. Talmage and
myself is this: He says that God made the universe
out of his "omnipotence," and I say that, although I
know nothing whatever upon the subject, my opinion
is, that the universe has existed from eternity—that it
continually changes in form, but that it never was

created or called into being by any power. I think
that all that is, is all the God there is.

Question. Mr. Talmage charges you with having
misrepresented the Bible story of the deluge. Has he
correctly stated your position?

Answer. Mr. Talmage takes the ground that the
flood was only partial, and was, after all, not much of a
flood. The Bible tells us that God said he would
"destroy all flesh wherein is the breath of life from
"under heaven, and that everything that is in the
"earth shall die;" that God also said: "I will destroy
"man, whom I have created, from the face of the
"earth; both man and beast and the creeping thing
"and the fowls of the air, and every living substance
"that I have made will I destroy from off the face of
"the earth."

I did not suppose that there was any miracle in the
Bible larger than the credulity of Mr. Talmage. The
flood story, however, seems to be a little more than
he can bear. He is like the witness who stated that
he had read Gullivers Travels, the Stories of Mun-
chausen, and the Flying Wife, including Robinson
Crusoe, and believed them all; but that Wirt's Life of
Patrick Henry was a litde more than he could stand.

It is strange that a man who believes that God
created the universe out of "omnipotence" should
believe that he had not enough omnipotence left to
drown a world the size of this. Mr. Talmage seeks
to make the story of the flood reasonable. The
moment it is reasonable, it ceases to be miraculous.
Certainly God cannot afford to reward a man with
eternal joy for believing a reasonable story. Faith is
only necessary when the story is unreasonable, and if
the flood only gets small enough, I can believe it
myself. I ask for evidence, and Mr. Talmage seeks
to make the story so little that it can be believed
without evidence. He tells us that it was a kind of
"local option" flood—a little wet for that part of the
country.

Why was it necessary to save the birds? They
certainly could have gotten out of the way of a real
small flood. Of the birds, Noah took fourteen of each
species. He was commanded to take of the fowls of the
air by sevens—seven of each sex—and, as there are
at least 12,500 species, Noah collected an aviary of
about 175,000 birds, provided the flood was general.
If it was local, there are no means of determining the
number. But why, if the flood was local, should he
have taken any of the fowls of the air into his ark?

All they had to do was to fly away, or "roost high;"
and it would have been just as easy for God to have
implanted in them, for the moment, the instinct of
getting out of the way as the instinct of hunting the ark.
It would have been quite a saving of room and pro-
visions, and would have materially lessened the labor
and anxiety of Noah and his sons.

Besides, if it had been a partial flood, and great
enough to cover the highest mountains in that country,
the highest mountain being about seventeen thousand
feet, the flood would have been covered with a sheet
of ice several thousand feet in thickness. If a column
of water could have been thrown seventeen thousand
feet high and kept stationary, several thousand feet
of the upper end would have frozen. If, however,
the deluge was general, then the atmosphere would
have been forced out the same on all sides, and the
climate remained substantially normal.

Nothing can be more absurd than to attempt to
explain the flood by calling it partial.

Mr. Talmage also says that the window ran clear
round the ark, and that if I had only known as much
Hebrew as a man could put on his little finger, I
would have known that the window went clear round.
To this I reply that, if his position is correct, then the

original translators of King James' edition did not
know as much Hebrew as they could have put on
their little fingers; and yet I am obliged to believe
their translation or be eternally damned. If the
window went clear round, the inspired writer should
have said so, and the learned translators should have
given us the truth. No one pretends that there was
more than one door, and yet the same language is
used about the door, except this—that the exact size
of the window is given, and the only peculiarity men-
tioned as to the door is that it shut from the outside.
For any one to see that Mr. Talmage is wrong on the
window question, it is only necessary to read the story
of the deluge.

Mr. Talmage also endeavors to decrease the depth
of the flood. If the flood did not cover the highest
hills, many people might have been saved. He also
insists that all the water did not come from the rains,
but that "the fountains of the great deep were broken
"up." What are "the fountains of the great deep"?
How would their being "broken up" increase the
depth of the water? He seems to imagine that these
"fountains" were in some way imprisoned—anxious
to get to the surface, and that, at that time, an oppor-
tunity was given for water to run up hill, or in some

mysterious way to rise above its level. According to
the account, the ark was at the mercy of the waves for
at least seven months. If this flood was only partial,
it seems a little curious that the water did not seek its
level in less than seven months. With anything like
a fair chance, by that time most of it would have
found its way to the sea again.

There is in the literature of ignorance no more
perfectly absurd and cruel story than that of the
deluge.

I am very sorry that Mr. Talmage should disagree
with some of the great commentators. Dr. Scott
tells us that, in all probability, the angels assisted in
getting the animals into the ark. Dr. Henry insists
that the waters in the bowels of the earth, at God's
command, sprung up and flooded the earth. Dr.
Clark tells us that it would have been much easier
for God to have destroyed all the people and made
some new ones, but that he did not want to waste
anything. Dr. Henry also tells us that the lions, while
in the ark, ate straw like oxen. Nothing could be
more amusing than to see a few lions eating good,
dry straw. This commentator assures us that the
waters rose so high that the loftiest mountains were
overflowed fifteen cubits, so that salvation was not

hoped for from any hills or mountains. He tells us
that some of the people got on top of the ark, and
hoped to shift for themselves, but that, in all proba-
bility, they were washed off by the rain. When we
consider that the rain must have fallen at the rate of
about eight hundred feet a day, I am inclined to think
that they were washed off.

Mr. Talmage has clearly misrepresented the Bible.
He is not prepared to believe the story as it is told.
The seeds of infidelity seem to be germinating in his
mind. His position no doubt will be a great relief to
most of his hearers. After this, their credulity will
not be strained. They can say that there was probably
quite a storm, some rain, to an extent that rendered it
necessary for Noah and his family—his dogs, cats,
and chickens—to get in a boat. This would not be
unreasonable. The same thing happens almost every
year on the shores of great rivers, and consequently
the story of the flood is an exceedingly reasonable
one.

Mr. Talmage also endeavors to account for the
miraculous collection of the animals in the ark by
the universal instinct to get out of the rain. There
are at least two objections to this: 1. The animals
went into the ark before the rain commenced; 2. I

have never noticed any great desire on the part of
ducks, geese, and loons to get out of the water. Mr.
Talmage must have been misled by a line from an old
nursery book that says: "And the little fishes got
"under the bridge to keep out of the rain." He tells
us that Noah described what he saw. He is the first
theologian who claims that Genesis was written by
Noah, or that Noah wrote any account of the flood.
Most Christians insist that the account of the flood
was written by Moses, and that he was inspired to
write it. Of course, it will not do for me to say that
Mr. Talmage has misrepresented the facts.

Question. You are also charged with misrepresen-
tation in your statement as to where the ark at last
rested. It is claimed by Mr. Talmage that there is
nothing in the Bible to show that the ark rested on
the highest mountains.

Answer. Of course I have no knowledge as to
where the ark really came to anchor, but after it struck
bottom, we are told that a dove was sent out, and
that the dove found no place whereon to rest her
foot. If the ark touched ground in the low country,
surely the mountains were out of water, and an or-
dinary mountain furnishes, as a rule, space enough

for a dove's foot. We must infer that the ark rested
on the only land then above water, or near enough
above water to strike the keel of Noah's boat. Mount
Ararat is about seventeen thousand feet high; so I
take it that the top of that mountain was where Noah
ran aground—otherwise, the account means nothing.

Here Mr. Talmage again shows his tendency to
belittle the miracles of the Bible. I am astonished
that he should doubt the power of God to keep an
ark on a mountain seventeen thousand feet high.
He could have changed the climate for that occasion.
He could have made all the rocks and glaciers pro-
duce wheat and corn in abundance. Certainly God,
who could overwhelm a world with a flood, had the
power to change every law and fact in nature.

I am surprised that Mr. Talmage is not willing to
believe the story as it is told. What right has he to
question the statements of an inspired writer? Why
should he set up his judgment against the Websters
and Jacksons? Is it not infinitely impudent in him
to contrast his penny-dip with the sun of inspiration?
What right has he to any opinion upon the subject?
He must take the Bible as it reads. He should
remember that the greater the miracle the greater
should be his faith.

Question. You do not seem to have any great
opinion of the chemical, geological, and agricultural
views expressed by Mr. Talmage?

Answer. You must remember that Mr. Talmage
has a certain thing to defend. He takes the Bible as
actually true, and with the Bible as his standard, he
compares and measures all sciences. He does not
study geology to find whether the Mosaic account is
true, but he reads the Mosaic account for the purpose
of showing that geology can not be depended upon.
His idea that "one day is as a thousand years with
"God," and that therefore the "days" mentioned in the
Mosaic account are not days of twenty-four hours, but
long periods, is contradicted by the Bible itself. The
great reason given for keeping the Sabbath day is, that
"God rested on the seventh day and was refreshed."
Now, it does not say that he rested on the "seventh
"period," or the "seventh good—while," or the
"seventh long-time," but on the "seventh day." In
imitation of this example we are also to rest—not on
the seventh good-while, but on the seventh day.
Nothing delights the average minister more than to
find that a passage of Scripture is capable of several
interpretations. Nothing in the inspired book is so

dangerous as accuracy. If the holy writer uses
general terms, an ingenious theologian can harmonize
a seemingly preposterous statement with the most
obdurate fact. An "inspired" book should contain
neither statistics nor dates—as few names as possible,
and not one word about geology or astronomy. Mr.
Talmage is doing the best he can to uphold the fables
of the Jews. They are the foundation of his faith.
He believes in the water of the past and the fire of the
future—in the God of flood and flame—the eternal
torturer of his helpless children.

It is exceedingly unfortunate that Mr. Talmage does
not appreciate the importance of good manners, that
he does not rightly estimate the convincing power of
kindness and good nature. It is unfortunate that a
Christian, believing in universal forgiveness, should
exhibit so much of the spirit of detraction, that he
should run so easily and naturally into epithets, and
that he should mistake vituperation for logic. Thou-
sands of people, knowing but little of the mysteries of
Christianity—never having studied theology,—may
become prejudiced against the church, and doubt the
divine origin of a religion whose defenders seem to
rely, at least to a great degree, upon malignant per-
sonalities. Mr. Talmage should remember that in a

discussion of this kind, he is supposed to represent a
being of infinite wisdom and goodness. Surely, the
representative of the infinite can afford to be candid,
can afford to be kind. When he contemplates the
condition of a fellow-being destitute of religion, a
fellow-being now travelling the thorny path to eternal
fire, he should be filled with pity instead of hate.
Instead of deforming his mouth with scorn, his eyes
should be filled with tears. He should take into
consideration the vast difference between an infidel
and a minister of the gospel,—knowing, as he does,
that a crown of glory has been prepared for the
minister, and that flames are waiting for the soul
of the unbeliever. He should bear with philosophic
fortitude the apparent success of the skeptic, for a
few days in this brief life, since he knows that in a
little while the question will be eternally settled in
his favor, and that the humiliation of a day is as
nothing compared with the victory of eternity. In
this world, the skeptic appears to have the best
of the argument; logic seems to be on the side
of blasphemy; common sense apparently goes hand
in hand with infidelity, and the few things we are
absolutely certain of, seem inconsistent with the
Christian creeds.

This, however, as Mr. Talmage well knows, is but
apparent. God has arranged the world in this way
for the purpose of testing the Christian's faith.
Beyond all these facts, beyond logic, beyond reason,
Mr. Talmage, by the light of faith, clearly sees the
eternal truth. This clearness of vision should give
him the serenity of candor and the kindness born of
absolute knowledge. He, being a child of the light,
should not expect the perfect from the children of
darkness. He should not judge Humboldt and
Wesley by the same standard. He should remember
that Wesley was especially set apart and illuminated
by divine wisdom, while Humboldt was left to grope
in the shadows of nature. He should also remember
that ministers are not like other people. They have
been "called." They have been "chosen" by infinite
wisdom. They have been "set apart," and they
have bread to eat that we know not of. While
other people are forced to pursue the difficult paths
of investigation, they fly with the wings of faith.

Mr. Talmage is perfectly aware of the advantages
he enjoys, and yet he deems it dangerous to be fair.
This, in my judgment, is his mistake. If he cannot
easily point out the absurdities and contradictions in
infidel lectures, surely God would never have selected

him for that task. We cannot believe that imperfect
instruments would be chosen by infinite wisdom.
Certain lambs have been entrusted to the care of Mr.
Talmage, the shepherd. Certainly God would not
select a shepherd unable to cope with an average
wolf. Such a shepherd is only the appearance of
protection. When the wolf is not there, he is a
useless expense, and when the wolf comes, he goes.
I cannot believe that God would select a shepherd
of that kind. Neither can the shepherd justify his
selection by abusing the wolf when out of sight.
The fear ought to be on the other side. A divinely
appointed shepherd ought to be able to convince his
sheep that a wolf is a dangerous animal, and ought
to be able to give his reasons. It may be that the
shepherd has a certain interest in exaggerating the
cruelty and ferocity of the wolf, and even the number
of the wolves. Should it turn out that the wolves
exist only in the imagination of the shepherd, the
sheep might refuse to pay the salary of their pro-
tector. It will, however, be hard to calculate the
extent to which the sheep will lose confidence in a
shepherd who has not even the courage to state the
facts about the wolf. But what must be the result
when the sheep find that the supposed wolf is, in

fact, their friend, and that he is endeavoring to rescue
them from the exactions of the pretended shepherd,
who creates, by falsehood, the fear on which he
lives?

SECOND INTERVIEW.

Por. Why, man, what's the matter? Don't tear
your hair.

Sir Hugh. I have been beaten in a discussion,
overwhelmed and humiliated.

Por. Why didn't you call your adversary a fool?

Sir Hugh. My God! I forgot it!

Question. I want to ask you a few questions
about the second sermon of Mr. Talmage;
have you read it, and what do you think of it?

Answer. The text taken by the reverend gentle-
man is an insult, and was probably intended as such:
"The fool hath said in his heart, there is no God."
Mr. Talmage seeks to apply this text to any one
who denies that the Jehovah of the Jews was and is
the infinite and eternal Creator of all. He is per-
fectly satisfied that any man who differs with him on
this question is a "fool," and he has the Christian
forbearance and kindness to say so. I presume he

is honest in this opinion, and no doubt regards Bruno,
Spinoza and Humboldt as driveling imbeciles. He
entertains the same opinion of some of the greatest,
wisest and best of Greece and Rome.

No man is fitted to reason upon this question who
has not the intelligence to see the difficulties in all
theories. No man has yet evolved a theory that
satisfactorily accounts for all that is. No matter
what his opinion may be, he is beset by a thousand
difficulties, and innumerable things insist upon an
explanation. The best that any man can do is to
take that theory which to his mind presents the
fewest difficulties. Mr. Talmage has been educated
in a certain way—has a brain of a certain quantity,
quality and form—and accepts, in spite it may be,
of himself, a certain theory. Others, formed differ-
ently, having lived under different circumstances,
cannot accept the Talmagian view, and thereupon he
denounces them as fools. In this he follows the
example of David the murderer; of David, who
advised one of his children to assassinate another;
of David, whose last words were those of hate and
crime. Mr. Talmage insists that it takes no especial
brain to reason out a "design" in Nature, and in a
moment afterward says that "when the world slew

"Jesus, it showed what it would do with the eternal
"God, if once it could get its hands on Him." Why
should a God of infinite wisdom create people who
would gladly murder their Creator? Was there any
particular "design" in that? Does the existence
of such people conclusively prove the existence of a
good Designer? It seems to me—and I take it that
my thought is natural, as I have only been born
once—that an infinitely wise and good God would
naturally create good people, and if he has not, cer-
tainly the fault is his. The God of Mr. Talmage
knew, when he created Guiteau, that he would
assassinate Garfield. Why did he create him? Did
he want Garfield assassinated? Will somebody be
kind enough to show the "design" in this trans-
action? Is it possible to see "design" in earth-
quakes, in volcanoes, in pestilence, in famine, in
ruthless and relentless war? Can we find "design" in
the fact that every animal lives upon some other—
that every drop of every sea is a battlefield where
the strong devour the weak? Over the precipice
of cruelty rolls a perpetual Niagara of blood. Is
there "design" in this? Why should a good God
people a world with men capable of burning their
fellow-men—and capable of burning the greatest and

best? Why does a good God permit these things?
It is said of Christ that he was infinitely kind and
generous, infinitely merciful, because when on earth
he cured the sick, the lame and blind. Has he not
as much power now as he had then? If he was and
is the God of all worlds, why does he not now give
back to the widow her son? Why does he with-
hold light from the eyes of the blind? And why
does one who had the power miraculously to feed
thousands, allow millions to die for want of food?
Did Christ only have pity when he was part human?
Are we indebted for his kindness to the flesh that
clothed his spirit? Where is he now? Where has he
been through all the centuries of slavery and crime?
If this universe was "designed," then all that
happens was "designed." If a man constructs an
engine, the boiler of which explodes, we say either
that he did not know the strength of his materials, or
that he was reckless of human life. If an infinite being
should construct a weak or imperfect machine, he must
be held accountable for all that happens. He cannot
be permitted to say that he did not know the strength
of the materials. He is directly and absolutely re-
sponsible. So, if this world was designed by a being
of infinite power and wisdom, he is responsible for

the result of that design. My position is this: I do
not know. But there are so many objections to the
personal-God theory, that it is impossible for me to
accept it. I prefer to say that the universe is all the
God there is. I prefer to make no being responsible.
I prefer to say: If the naked are clothed, man
must clothe them; if the hungry are fed, man must
feed them. I prefer to rely upon human endeavor,
upon human intelligence, upon the heart and brain
of man. There is no evidence that God has ever
interfered in the affairs of man. The hand of earth
is stretched uselessly toward heaven. From the
clouds there comes no help. In vain the shipwrecked
cry to God. In vain the imprisoned ask for liberty
and light—the world moves on, and the heavens are
deaf and dumb and blind. The frost freezes, the fire
burns, slander smites, the wrong triumphs, the good
suffer, and prayer dies upon the lips of faith.

Question. Mr. Talmage charges you with being
"the champion blasphemer of America"—what do
you understand blasphemy to be?

Answer. Blasphemy is an epithet bestowed by su-
perstition upon common sense. Whoever investi-
gates a religion as he would any department of

science, is called a blasphemer. Whoever contradicts
a priest, whoever has the impudence to use his own
reason, whoever is brave enough to express his
honest thought, is a blasphemer in the eyes of the
religionist. When a missionary speaks slightingly of
the wooden god of a savage, the savage regards him
as a blasphemer. To laugh at the pretensions of
Mohammed in Constantinople is blasphemy. To say
in St. Petersburg that Mohammed was a prophet of
God is also blasphemy. There was a time when to
acknowledge the divinity of Christ in Jerusalem was
blasphemy. To deny his divinity is now blasphemy
in New York. Blasphemy is to a considerable extent
a geographical question. It depends not only on what
you say, but where you are when you say it. Blas-
phemy is what the old calls the new,—what last
year's leaf says to this year's bud. The founder of
every religion was a blasphemer. The Jews so re-
garded Christ, and the Athenians had the same
opinion of Socrates. Catholics have always looked
upon Protestants as blasphemers, and Protestants have
always held the same generous opinion of Catholics.
To deny that Mary is the Mother of God is blas-
phemy. To say that she is the Mother of God is
blasphemy. Some savages think that a dried snake-

skin stuffed with leaves is sacred, and he who thinks
otherwise is a blasphemer. It was once blasphemy
to laugh at Diana, of the Ephesians. Many people
think that it is blasphemous to tell your real opinion
of the Jewish Jehovah. Others imagine that words
can be printed upon paper, and the paper bound into
a book covered with sheepskin, and that the book is
sacred, and that to question its sacredness is blas-
phemy. Blasphemy is also a crime against God, but
nothing can be more absurd than a crime against
God. If God is infinite, you cannot injure him. You
cannot commit a crime against any being that you
cannot injure. Of course, the infinite cannot be in-
jured. Man is a conditioned being. By changing
his conditions, his surroundings, you can injure him;
but if God is infinite, he is conditionless. If he is
conditionless, he cannot by any possibility be injured.
You can neither increase, nor decrease, the well-being
of the infinite. Consequently, a crime against God
is a demonstrated impossibility. The cry of blasphemy
means only that the argument of the blasphemer can-
not be answered. The sleight-of-hand performer,
when some one tries to raise the curtain behind which
he operates, cries "blasphemer!" The priest, find-
ing that he has been attacked by common sense,—

by a fact,—resorts to the same cry. Blasphemy is the
black flag of theology, and it means: No argument
and no quarter! It is an appeal to prejudice, to
passions, to ignorance. It is the last resort of a
defeated priest. Blasphemy marks the point where
argument stops and slander begins. In old times, it
was the signal for throwing stones, for gathering
fagots and for tearing flesh; now it means falsehood
and calumny.

Question. Then you think that there is no such
thing as the crime of blasphemy, and that no such
offence can be committed?

Answer. Any one who knowingly speaks in favor
of injustice is a blasphemer. Whoever wishes to
destroy liberty of thought,—the honest expression of
ideas,—is a blasphemer. Whoever is willing to malign
his neighbor, simply because he differs with him upon
a subject about which neither of them knows anything
for certain, is a blasphemer. If a crime can be com-
mitted against God, he commits it who imputes to
God the commission of crime. The man who says
that God ordered the assassination of women and
babes, that he gave maidens to satisfy the lust of
soldiers, that he enslaved his own children,—that man

is a blasphemer. In my judgment, it would be far
better to deny the existence of God entirely. It
seems to me that every man ought to give his honest
opinion. No man should suppose that any infinite
God requires him to tell as truth that which he knows
nothing about.

Mr. Talmage, in order to make a point against
infidelity, states from his pulpit that I am in favor of
poisoning the minds of children by the circulation of
immoral books. The statement is entirely false. He
ought to have known that I withdrew from the Liberal
League upon the very question whether the law should
be repealed or modified. I favored a modification
of that law, so that books and papers could not be
thrown from the mails simply because they were
"infidel."

I was and am in favor of the destruction of
every immoral book in the world. I was and am
in favor, not only of the law against the circulation
of such filth, but want it executed to the letter in every
State of this Union. Long before he made that state-
ment, I had introduced a resolution to that effect, and
supported the resolution in a speech. Notwithstand-
ing these facts, hundreds of clergymen have made
haste to tell the exact opposite of the truth. This

they have done in the name of Christianity, under the
pretence of pleasing their God. In my judgment, it
is far better to tell your honest opinions, even upon
the subject of theology, than to knowingly tell a false-
hood about a fellow-man. Mr. Talmage may have
been ignorant of the truth. He may have been misled
by other ministers, and for his benefit I make this ex-
planation. I wanted the laws modified so that bigotry
could not interfere with the literature of intelligence;
but I did not want, in any way, to shield the writers or
publishers of immoral books. Upon this subject I
used, at the last meeting of the Liberal League that
I attended, the following language:

"But there is a distinction wide as the Mississippi,
"yes, wider than the Atlantic, wider than all oceans,
"between the literature of immorality and the litera-
"ture of free thought. One is a crawling, slimy lizard,
"and the other an angel with wings of light. Let us
"draw this distinction. Let us understand ourselves.
"Do not make the wholesale statement that all these
"laws ought to be repealed. They ought not to be
"repealed. Some of them are good, and the law
"against sending instruments of vice through the
"mails is good. The law against sending obscene
"pictures and books is good. The law against send-

"ing bogus diplomas through the mails, to allow a
"lot of ignorant hyenas to prey upon the sick people
"of the world, is a good law. The law against rascals
"who are getting up bogus lotteries, and sending their
"circulars in the mails is a good law. You know, as
"well as I, that there are certain books not fit to go
"through the mails. You know that. You know there
"are certain pictures not fit to be transmitted, not fit
"to be delivered to any human being. When these
"books and pictures come into the control of the
"United States, I say, burn them up! And when any
"man has been indicted who has been trying to make
"money by pandering to the lowest passions in the
"human breast, then I say, prosecute him! let the
"law take its course."

I can hardly convince myself that when Mr.
Talmage made the charge, he was acquainted with
the facts. It seems incredible that any man, pre-
tending to be governed by the law of common
honesty, could make a charge like this knowing
it to be untrue. Under no circumstances, would
I charge Mr. Talmage with being an infamous
man, unless the evidence was complete and over-
whelming. Even then, I should hesitate long before
making the charge. The side I take on theological

questions does not render a resort to slander or
calumny a necessity. If Mr. Talmage is an honor-
able man, he will take back the statement he has
made. Even if there is a God, I hardly think that
he will reward one of his children for maligning
another; and to one who has told falsehoods about
"infidels," that having been his only virtue, I doubt
whether he will say: "Well done good and faithful
"servant."

Question. What have you to say to the charge
that you are endeavoring to "assassinate God,"
and that you are "far worse than the man who at-
"tempts to kill his father, or his mother, or his sister,
"or his brother"?

Answer. Well, I think that is about as reason-
able as anything he says. No one wishes, so far as I
know, to assassinate God. The idea of assassinating
an infinite being is of course infinitely absurd. One
would think Mr. Talmage had lost his reason! And
yet this man stands at the head of the Presbyterian
clergy. It is for this reason that I answer him. He
is the only Presbyterian minister in the United
States, so far as I know, able to draw an audience.
He is, without doubt, the leader of that denomination.

He is orthodox and conservative. He believes im-
plicitly in the "Five Points" of Calvin, and says
nothing simply for the purpose of attracting attention.
He believes that God damns a man for his own glory;
that he sends babes to hell to establish his mercy,
and that he filled the world with disease and crime
simply to demonstrate his wisdom. He believes that
billions of years before the earth was, God had made
up his mind as to the exact number that he would
eternally damn, and had counted his saints. This
doctrine he calls "glad tidings of great joy." He
really believes that every man who is true to himself
is waging war against God; that every infidel is a
rebel; that every Freethinker is a traitor, and that
only those are good subjects who have joined the
Presbyterian Church, know the Shorter Catechism by
heart, and subscribe liberally toward lifting the mort-
gage on the Brooklyn Tabernacle. All the rest are
endeavoring to assassinate God, plotting the murder
of the Holy Ghost, and applauding the Jews for the
crucifixion of Christ. If Mr. Talmage is correct in
his views as to the power and wisdom of God, I
imagine that his enemies at last will be overthrown,
that the assassins and murderers will not succeed, and
that the Infinite, with Mr. Talmage s assistance, will

finally triumph. If there is an infinite God, certainly
he ought to have made man grand enough to have
and express an opinion of his own. Is it possible
that God can be gratified with the applause of moral
cowards? Does he seek to enhance his glory by
receiving the adulation of cringing slaves? Is God
satisfied with the adoration of the frightened?

Question. You notice that Mr. Talmage finds
nearly all the inventions of modern times mentioned
in the Bible?

Answer: Yes; Mr. Talmage has made an ex-
ceedingly important discovery. I admit that I am
somewhat amazed at the wisdom of the ancients.
This discovery has been made just in the nick of
time. Millions of people were losing their respect
for the Old Testament. They were beginning to
think that there was some discrepancy between the
prophecies of Ezekiel and Daniel and the latest devel-
opments in physical science. Thousands of preachers
were telling their flocks that the Bible is not a
scientific book; that Joshua was not an inspired as-
tronomer, that God never enlightened Moses about
geology, and that Ezekiel did not understand the
entire art of cookery. These admissions caused

some young people to suspect that the Bible, after all,
was not inspired; that the prophets of antiquity did
not know as much as the discoverers of to-day. The
Bible was falling into disrepute. Mr. Talmage has
rushed to the rescue. He shows, and shows conclu-
sively as anything can be shown from the Bible, that
Job understood all the laws of light thousands of
years before Newton lived; that he anticipated the

discoveries of Descartes, Huxley and Tyndall; that
he was familiar with the telegraph and telephone;
that Morse, Bell and Edison simply put his discov-
eries in successful operation; that Nahum was, in
fact, a master-mechanic; that he understood perfectly
the modern railway and described it so accurately
that Trevethick, Foster and Stephenson had no diffi-
culty in constructing a locomotive. He also has
discovered that Job was well acquainted with the
trade winds, and understood the mysterious currents,
tides and pulses of the sea; that Lieutenant Maury
was a plagiarist; that Humboldt was simply a biblical
student. He finds that Isaiah and Solomon were
far in advance of Galileo, Morse, Meyer and Watt.
This is a discovery wholly unexpected to me. If
Mr. Talmage is right, I am satisfied the Bible is an
inspired book. If it shall turn out that Joshua was

superior to Laplace, that Moses knew more about
geology than Humboldt, that Job as a scientist was
the superior of Kepler, that Isaiah knew more than
Copernicus, and that even the minor prophets ex-
celled the inventors and discoverers of our time—
then I will admit that infidelity must become speech-
less forever. Until I read this sermon, I had never
even suspected that the inventions of modern times
were known to the ancient Jews. I never supposed
that Nahum knew the least thing about railroads, or
that Job would have known a telegraph if he had seen
it. I never supposed that Joshua comprehended the
three laws of Kepler. Of course I have not read
the Old Testament with as much care as some other
people have, and when I did read it, I was not looking
for inventions and discoveries. I had been told so
often that the Bible was no authority upon scientific
questions, that I was lulled into a state of lethargy.
What is amazing to me is, that so many men did
read it without getting the slightest hint of the
smallest invention. To think that the Jews read that
book for hundreds and hundreds of years, and yet
went to their graves without the slightest notion of
astronomy, or geology, of railroads, telegraphs, or
steamboats! And then to think that the early fathers

made it the study of their lives and died without in-
venting anything! I am astonished that Mr. Talmage
himself does not figure in the records of the Patent
Office. I cannot account for this, except upon the
supposition that he is too honest to infringe on the
patents of the patriarchs. After this, I shall read
the Old Testament with more care.

Question. Do you see that Mr. Talmage endeav-
ors to convict you of great ignorance in not knowing
that the word translated "rib" should have been
translated "side," and that Eve, after all, was not
made out of a rib, but out of Adam's side?

Answer. I may have been misled by taking the
Bible as it is translated. The Bible account is simply
this: "And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall
"upon Adam, and he slept. And he took one of
"his ribs and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
"and the rib which the Lord God had taken from
"man made he a woman, and brought her unto the
"man. And Adam said: This is now bone of my
"bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called
"woman, because she was taken out of man." If
Mr. Talmage is right, then the account should be as
follows: "And the Lord God caused a deep sleep

"to fall upon Adam, and he slept; and he took one
"of his sides, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
"and the side which the Lord God had taken from
"man made he a woman, and brought her unto the
"man. And Adam said: This is now side of my
"side, and flesh of my flesh." I do not see that the
story is made any better by using the word "side"
instead of "rib." It would be just as hard for God
to make a woman out of a man's side as out of a
rib. Mr. Talmage ought not to question the power
of God to make a woman out of a bone, and he must
recollect that the less the material the greater the
miracle.

There are two accounts of the creation of man,
in Genesis, the first being in the twenty-first verse
of the first chapter and the second being in the
twenty-first and twenty-second verses of the sec-
ond chapter.

According to the second account, "God formed
"man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into
"his nostrils the breath of life." And after this,
"God planted a garden eastward in Eden and put
"the man" in this garden. After this, "He made
"every tree to grow that was good for food and
"pleasant to the sight," and, in addition, "the tree

"of life in the midst of the garden," beside "the tree
"of the knowledge of good and evil." And he "put
"the man in the garden to dress it and keep it,"
telling him that he might eat of everything he saw
except of "the tree of the knowledge of good and
"evil."

After this, God having noticed that it "was not
"good for man to be alone, formed out of the ground
"every beast of the field, every fowl of the air, and
"brought them to Adam to see what he would call
"them, and Adam gave names to all cattle, and to
"the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field.
"But for Adam there was not found an helpmeet for
"him."

We are not told how Adam learned the language,
or how he understood what God said. I can hardly
believe that any man can be created with the know-
ledge of a language. Education cannot be ready
made and stuffed into a brain. Each person must
learn a language for himself. Yet in this account we
find a language ready made for man's use. And not
only man was enabled to speak, but a serpent also
has the power of speech, and the woman holds a
conversation with this animal and with her husband;
and yet no account is given of how any language was

learned. God is described as walking in the garden
in the cool of the day, speaking like a man—holding
conversations with the man and woman, and occa-
sionally addressing the serpent.

In the nursery rhymes of the world there is
nothing more childish than this "inspired" account
of the creation of man and woman.

The early fathers of the church held that woman
was inferior to man, because man was not made for
woman, but woman for man; because Adam was
made first and Eve afterward. They had not the
gallantry of Robert Burns, who accounted for the
beauty of woman from the fact that God practiced
on man first, and then gave woman the benefit of
his experience. Think, in this age of the world,
of a well-educated, intelligent gentleman telling his
little child that about six thousand years ago a
mysterious being called God made the world out of
his "omnipotence;" then made a man out of some
dust which he is supposed to have moulded into
form; that he put this man in a garden for the pur-
pose of keeping the trees trimmed; that after a little
while he noticed that the man seemed lonesome, not
particularly happy, almost homesick; that then it oc-
curred to this God, that it would be a good thing for

the man to have some company, somebody to help
him trim the trees, to talk to him and cheer him up
on rainy days; that, thereupon, this God caused
a deep sleep to fall on the man, took a knife, or a
long, sharp piece of "omnipotence," and took out one
of the man's sides, or a rib, and of that made a
woman; that then this man and woman got along
real well till a snake got into the garden and induced
the woman to eat of the tree of the knowledge of
good and evil; that the woman got the man to take
a bite; that afterwards both of them were detected by
God, who was walking around in the cool of the
evening, and thereupon they were turned out of the
garden, lest they should put forth their hands and eat
of the tree of life, and live forever.

This foolish story has been regarded as the sacred,
inspired truth; as an account substantially written by
God himself; and thousands and millions of people
have supposed it necessary to believe this childish
falsehood, in order to save their souls. Nothing
more laughable can be found in the fairy tales and
folk-lore of savages. Yet this is defended by the
leading Presbyterian divine, and those who fail to
believe in the truth of this story are called "brazen
"faced fools," "deicides," and "blasphemers."

By this story woman in all Christian countries was
degraded. She was considered too impure to preach
the gospel, too impure to distribute the sacramental
bread, too impure to hand about the sacred wine,
too impure to step within the "holy of holies," in the
Catholic Churches, too impure to be touched by a
priest. Unmarried men were considered purer than
husbands and fathers. Nuns were regarded as su-
perior to mothers, a monastery holier than a home, a
nunnery nearer sacred than the cradle. And through
all these years it has been thought better to love
God than to love man, better to love God than to
love your wife and children, better to worship an
imaginary deity than to help your fellow-men.

I regard the rights of men and women equal. In
Love's fair realm, husband and wife are king and
queen, sceptered and crowned alike, and seated on
the self-same throne.

Question. Do you still insist that the Old Testa-
ment upholds polygamy? Mr. Talmage denies this
charge, and shows how terribly God punished those
who were not satisfied with one wife.

Answer. I see nothing in what Mr. Talmage has
said calculated to change my opinion. It has been

admitted by thousands of theologians that the Old
Testament upholds polygamy. Mr. Talmage is
among the first to deny it. It will not do to say that
David was punished for the crime of polygamy
or concubinage. He was "a man after God's own
"heart." He was made a king. He was a successful
general, and his blood is said to have flowed in the
veins of God. Solomon was, according to the ac-
count, enriched with wisdom above all human beings.
Was that a punishment for having had so many
wives? Was Abraham pursued by the justice of
God because of the crime against Hagar, or for the
crime against his own wife? The verse quoted by
Mr. Talmage to show that God was opposed to
polygamy, namely, the eighteenth verse of the eight-
eenth chapter of Leviticus, cannot by any ingenuity
be tortured into a command against polygamy. The
most that can be possibly said of it is, that you shall
not marry the sister of your wife, while your wife is
living. Yet this passage is quoted by Mr. Talmage
as "a thunder of prohibition against having more
"than one wife." In the twentieth chapter of
Leviticus it is enacted: "That if a man take a wife
"and her mother they shall be burned with fire." A
commandment like this shows that he might take his

wife and somebody else's mother. These passages
have nothing to do with polygamy. They show
whom you may marry, not how many; and there is
not in Leviticus a solitary word against polygamy—
not one. Nor is there such a word in Genesis, nor
Exodus, nor in the entire Pentateuch—not one
word. These books are filled with the most minute
directions about killing sheep, and goats and doves;
about making clothes for priests, about fashioning
tongs and snuffers; and yet, they contain not one
word against polygamy. It never occurred to the in-
spired writers that polygamy was a crime. Polygamy
was accepted as a matter of course. Women were
simple property.

Mr. Talmage, however, insists that, although God
was against polygamy, he permitted it, and at the
same time threw his moral influence against it.
Upon this subject he says: "No doubt God per-
"mitted polygamy to continue for sometime, just
"as he permits murder and arson, theft and gam-
"bling to-day to continue, although he is against
"them." If God is the author of the Ten Com-
mandments, he prohibited murder and theft, but
he said nothing about polygamy. If he was so
terribly against that crime, why did he forget to

mention it? Was there not room enough on the
tables of stone for just one word on this subject?
Had he no time to give a commandment against
slavery? Mr. Talmage of course insists that God
had to deal with these things gradually, his idea being
that if God had made a commandment against them all
at once, the Jews would have had nothing more to do
with him.

For instance: if we wanted to break cannibals
of eating missionaries, we should not tell them all
at once that it was wrong, that it was wicked, to
eat missionaries raw; we should induce them first
to cook the missionaries, and gradually wean them
from raw flesh. This would be the first great step.
We would stew the missionaries, and after a time
put a little mutton in the stew, not enough to excite
the suspicion of the cannibal, but just enough to get
him in the habit of eating mutton without knowing it.
Day after day we would put in more mutton and less
missionary, until finally, the cannibal would be perfectly
satisfied with clear mutton. Then we would tell him
that it was wrong to eat missionary. After the can-
nibal got so that he liked mutton, and cared nothing
for missionary, then it would be safe to have a law
upon the subject.

Mr. Talmage insists that polygamy cannot exist
among people who believe the Bible. In this he is
mistaken. The Mormons all believe the Bible. There
is not a single polygamist in Utah who does not insist
upon the inspiration of the Old and New Testaments.

The Rev. Mr. Newman, a kind of peripatetic consu-
lar theologian, once had a discussion, I believe, with
Elder Orson Pratt, at Salt Lake City, upon the question
of polygamy. It is sufficient to say of this discussion
that it is now circulated by the Mormons as a campaign
document. The elder overwhelmed the parson.
Passages of Scripture in favor of polygamy were
quoted by the hundred. The lives of all the patriarchs
were brought forward, and poor parson Newman was
driven from the field. The truth is, the Jews at that
time were much like our forefathers. They were
barbarians, and many of their laws were unjust
and cruel. Polygamy was the right of all; practiced,
as a matter of fact, by the rich and powerful, and the
rich and powerful were envied by the poor. In such
esteem did the ancient Jews hold polygamy, that the
number of Solomons wives was given, simply to en-
hance his glory. My own opinion is, that Solomon
had very few wives, and that polygamy was not
general in Palestine. The country was too poor, and

Solomon, in all his glory was hardly able to support
one wife. He was a poor barbarian king with a
limited revenue, with a poor soil, with a sparse popu-
lation, without art, without science and without power.
He sustained about the same relation to other kings
that Delaware does to other States. Mr. Talmage
says that God persecuted Solomon, and yet, if he will
turn to the twenty-second chapter of First Chronicles,
he will find what God promised to Solomon. God,
speaking to David, says: "Behold a son shall be born
"to thee, who shall be a man of rest, and I will give him
"rest from his enemies around about; for his name shall
"be Solomon, and I will give peace and quietness
"unto Israel in his days. He shall build a house in my
"name, and he shall be my son and I will be his father,
"and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over
"Israel forever." Did God keep his promise?

So he tells us that David was persecuted by
God, on account of his offences, and yet I find in
the twenty-eighth verse of the twenty-ninth chapter
of First Chronicles, the following account of the death
of David: "And he died in a good old age, full of
"days, riches and honor." Is this true?

Question. What have you to say to the charge
that you were mistaken in the number of years that

the Hebrews were in Egypt? Mr. Talmage says that
they were there 430 years, instead of 215 years.

Answer. If you will read the third chapter of
Galatians, sixteenth and seventeenth verses, you will
find that it was 430 years from the time God made the
promise to Abraham to the giving of the law from
Mount Sinai. The Hebrews did not go to Egypt for
215 years after the promise was made to Abraham,
and consequently did not remain in Egypt more than
215 years. If Galatians is true, I am right.

Strange that Mr. Talmage should belittle the mira-
cles. The trouble with this defender of the faith is that
he cares nothing for facts. He makes the strangest
statements, and cares the least for proof, of any
man I know. I can account for what he says of me
only upon the supposition that he has not read my
lectures. He may have been misled by the pirated
editions; Persons have stolen my lectures, printed the
same ones under various names, and filled them with
mistakes and things I never said. Mr. C. P. Farrell,
of Washington, is my only authorized publisher.
Yet Mr. Talmage prefers to answer the mistakes of
literary thieves, and charge their ignorance to me.

Question. Did you ever attack the character of
Queen Victoria, or did you draw any parallel between

her and George Eliot, calculated to depreciate the
reputation of the Queen?

Answer. I never said a word against Victoria.
The fact is, I am not acquainted with her—never met
her in my life, and know but little of her. I never
happened to see her "in plain clothes, reading the
"Bible to the poor in the lane,"—neither did I ever
hear her sing. I most cheerfully admit that her
reputation is good in the neighborhood where she
resides. In one of my lectures I drew a parallel
between George Eliot and Victoria. I was showing
the difference between a woman who had won her
position in the world of thought, and one who was
queen by chance. This is what I said:

"It no longer satisfies the ambition of a great man
"to be a king or emperor. The last Napoleon was
"not satisfied with being the Emperor of the French.
"He was not satisfied with having a circlet of gold
"about his head—he wanted some evidence that he
"had something of value in his head. So he wrote
"the life of Julius Cæsar that he might become a
"member of the French Academy. The emperors,
"the kings, the popes, no longer tower above their
"fellows. Compare King William with the philoso-
"pher Hæckel. The king is one of the 'anointed

"'of the Most High'—as they claim—one upon
"whose head has been poured the divine petroleum
"of authority. Compare this king with Hæckel, who
"towers an intellectual Colossus above the crowned
"mediocrity. Compare George Eliot with Queen
"Victoria. The queen is clothed in garments given
"her by blind fortune and unreasoning chance, while
"George Eliot wears robes of glory, woven in the
"loom of her own genius. The world is beginning
"to pay homage to intellect, to genius, to heart."
I said not one word against Queen Victoria, and did
not intend to even intimate that she was not an ex-
cellent woman, wife and mother. I was simply trying
to show that the world was getting great enough to
place a genius above an accidental queen. Mr. Tal-
mage, true to the fawning, cringing spirit of ortho-
doxy, lauds the living queen and cruelly maligns the
genius dead. He digs open the grave of George Eliot,
and tries to stain the sacred dust of one who was the
greatest woman England has produced. He calls her
"an adultress." He attacks her because she was an
atheist—because she abhorred Jehovah, denied the
inspiration of the Bible, denied the dogma of eternal
pain, and with all her heart despised the Presbyterian
creed. He hates her because she was great and brave

and free—because she lived without "faith" and died
without fear—because she dared to give her honest
thought, and grandly bore the taunts and slanders of
the Christian world.

George Eliot tenderly carried in her heart the
burdens of our race. She looked through pity's tears
upon the faults and frailties of mankind. She knew
the springs and seeds of thought and deed, and saw,
with cloudless eyes, through all the winding ways of
greed, ambition and deceit, where folly vainly plucks
with thorn-pierced hands the fading flowers of selfish
joy—the highway of eternal right. Whatever her
relations may have been—no matter what I think, or
others say, or how much all regret the one mistake in
all her self-denying, loving life—I feel and know that
in the court where her own conscience sat as judge, she
stood acquitted—pure as light and stainless as a star.

How appropriate here, with some slight change,
the wondrously poetic and pathetic words of Laertes
at Ophelia's grave:

Leave her i' the earth;
And from her fair and unpolluted flesh
May violets spring!
I tell thee, churlish priest,
A ministering angel shall this woman be,
When thou liest howling!

I have no words with which to tell my loathing for
a man who violates a noble woman's grave.

Question. Do you think that the spirit in which
Mr. Talmage reviews your lectures is in accordance
with the teachings of Christianity?

Answer. I think that he talks like a true Presby-
terian. If you will read the arguments of Calvin
against the doctrines of Castalio and Servetus, you will
see that Mr. Talmage follows closely in the footsteps
of the founder of his church. Castalio was such a
wicked and abandoned wretch, that he taught the
innocence of honest error. He insisted that God
would not eternally damn a man for being honestly
mistaken. For the utterance of such blasphemous
sentiments, abhorrent to every Christian mind, Calvin
called him "a dog of Satan, and a child of hell." In
short, he used the usual arguments. Castalio was
banished, and died in exile. In the case of Servetus,
after all the epithets had been exhausted, an appeal
was made to the stake, and the blasphemous wretch
was burned to ashes.

If you will read the life of John Knox, you will find
that Mr. Talmage is as orthodox in his methods of
dealing with infidels, as he is in his creed. In my
opinion, he would gladly treat unbelievers now, as the
Puritans did the Quakers, as the Episcopalians did the
Presbyterians, as the Presbyterians did the Baptists,

and as the Catholics have treated all heretics. Of
course, all these sects will settle their differences in
heaven. In the next world, they will laugh at the
crimes they committed in this.

The course pursued by Mr. Talmage is consistent.
The pulpit cannot afford to abandon the weapons of
falsehood and defamation. Candor sows the seeds of
doubt. Fairness is weakness. The only way to suc-
cessfully uphold the religion of universal love, is to
denounce all Freethinkers as blasphemers, adulterers,
and criminals. No matter how generous they may
appear to be, no matter how fairly they may deal with
their fellow-men, rest assured that they are actuated
by the lowest and basest motives. Infidels who out-
wardly live honest and virtuous lives, are inwardly
vicious, virulent and vile. After all, morality is only
a veneering. God is not deceived with the varnish of
good works. We know that the natural man is
totally depraved, and that until he has been regene-
rated by the spirit of God, he is utterly incapable of a
good action. The generosity of the unbeliever is, in
fact, avarice. His honesty is only a form of larceny.
His love is only hatred. No matter how sincerely
he may love his wife,—how devoted he may be to
his children,—no matter how ready he may be 'to

sacrifice even his life for the good of mankind, God,
looking into his very heart, finds it only a den of
hissing snakes, a lair of wild, ferocious beasts, a cage
of unclean birds.

The idea that God will save a man simply because
he is honest and generous, is almost too preposterous
for serious refutation. No man should rely upon his
own goodness. He should plead the virtue of another.
God, in his infinite justice, damns a good man on his
own merits, and saves a bad man on the merits of
another. The repentant murderer will be an angel
of light, while his honest and unoffending victim will
be a fiend in hell.

A little while ago, a ship, disabled, was blown about
the Atlantic for eighty days. Everything had been
eaten. Nothing remained but bare decks and hunger.
The crew consisted of Captain Kruger and nine others.
For nine days, nothing had been eaten. The captain,
taking a revolver in his hand, said: "Mates, some
"one must die for the rest. I am willing to sacrifice
"myself for you." One of his comrades grasped his
hand, and implored him to wait one more day. The
next morning, a sail was seen upon the horizon, and
the dying men were rescued.

To an ordinary man,—to one guided by the light of

reason,—it is perfectly clear that Captain Kruger was
about to do an infinitely generous action. Yet Mr.
Talmage will tell us that if that captain was not a
Christian, and if he had sent the bullet crashing
through his brain in order that his comrades might eat
his body, and live to reach their wives and homes,—
his soul, from that ship, would have gone, by dark
and tortuous ways, down to the prison of eternal pain.

Is it possible that Christ would eternally damn a
man for doing exactly what Christ would have done,
had he been infinitely generous, under the same cir-
cumstances? Is not self-denial in a man as praise-
worthy as in a God? Should a God be worshiped,
and a man be damned, for the same action?

According to Mr. Talmage, every soldier who fought
for our country in the Revolutionary war, who was
not a Christian, is now in hell. Every soldier, not a
Christian, who carried the flag of his country to vic-
tory—either upon the land or sea, in the war of 1812,
is now in hell. Every soldier, not a Christian, who
fought for the preservation of this Union,—to break
the chains of slavery—to free four millions of people
—to keep the whip from the naked back—every man
who did this—every one who died at Andersonville
and Libby, dreaming that his death would help make

the lives of others worth living, is now a lost and
wretched soul. These men are now in the prison of
God,—a prison in which the cruelties of Libby and
Andersonville would be regarded as mercies,—in
which famine would be a joy.

THIRD INTERVIEW.

Sinner. Is God infinite in wisdom and power?

Parson. He is.

Sinner. Does he at all times know just what ought
to be done?

Parson. He does.

Sinner. Does he always do just what ought to be
done?

Parson. He does.

Sinner. Why do you pray to him?

Parson. Because he is unchangeable.

Question. I want to ask you a few questions
about Mr. Talmage's third sermon. What do
you think of it?

Answer. I often ask myself the questions: Is
there anything in the occupation of a minister,—any-
thing in his surroundings, that makes him incapable
of treating an opponent fairly, or decently? Is there
anything in the doctrine of universal forgiveness that
compels a man to speak of one who differs with him
only in terms of disrespect and hatred? Is it neces-
sary for those who profess to love the whole world,
to hate the few they come in actual contact with?

Mr. Talmage, no doubt, professes to love all man-
kind,—Jew and Gentile, Christian and Pagan. No
doubt, he believes in the missionary effort, and thinks
we should do all in our power to save the soul of the
most benighted savage; and yet he shows anything
but affection for the "heathen" at home. He loves
the ones he never saw,—is real anxious for their wel-
fare,—but for the ones he knows, he exhibits only
scorn and hatred. In one breath, he tells us that
Christ loves us, and in the next, that we are "wolves
"and dogs." We are informed that Christ forgave
even his murderers, but that now he hates an honest
unbeliever with all his heart. He can forgive the
ones who drove the nails into his hands and feet,—
the one who thrust the spear through his quivering
flesh,—but he cannot forgive the man who entertains
an honest doubt about the "scheme of salvation."
He regards the man who thinks, as a "mouth-maker
"at heaven." Is it possible that Christ is less for-
giving in heaven than he was in Jerusalem? Did he
excuse murderers then, and does he damn thinkers
now? Once he pitied even thieves; does he now
abhor an intellectually honest man?

Question. Mr. Talmage seems to think that you
have no right to give your opinion about the Bible.

Do you think that laymen have the same right as
ministers to examine the Scriptures?

Answer. If God only made a revelation for
preachers, of course we will have to depend on the
preachers for information. But the preachers have
made the mistake of showing the revelation. They
ask us, the laymen, to read it, and certainly there is
no use of reading it, unless we are permitted to think
for ourselves while we read. If after reading the Bible
we believe it to be true, we will say so, if we are
honest. If we do not believe it, we will say so, if we
are honest.

But why should God be so particular about our
believing the stories in his book? Why should God
object to having his book examined? We do not
have to call upon legislators, or courts, to protect
Shakespeare from the derision of mankind. Was not
God able to write a book that would command the
love and admiration of the world? If the God of
Mr. Talmage is infinite, he knew exactly how the
stories of the Old Testament would strike a gentle-
man of the nineteenth century. He knew that many
would have their doubts,—that thousands of them—
and I may say most of them,—would refuse to believe
that a miracle had ever been performed.

Now, it seems to me that he should either have left
the stories out, or furnished evidence enough to con-
vince the world. According to Mr. Talmage, thou-
sands of people are pouring over the Niagara of
unbelief into the gulf of eternal pain. Why does not
God furnish more evidence? Just in proportion as
man has developed intellectually, he has demanded
additional testimony. That which satisfies a barbarian,
excites only the laughter of a civilized man. Cer-
tainly God should furnish evidence in harmony with
the spirit of the age. If God wrote his Bible for the
average man, he should have written it in such a way
that it would have carried conviction to the brain and
heart of the average man; and he should have
made no man in such a way that he could not, by any
possibility, believe it. There certainly should be a
harmony between the Bible and the human brain. If
I do not believe the Bible, whose fault is it? Mr.
Talmage insists that his God wrote the Bible for me.
and made me. If this is true, the book and the man
should agree. There is no sense in God writing
a book for me and then making me in such a way that
I cannot believe his book.

Question. But Mr. Talmage says the reason why
you hate the Bible is, that your soul is poisoned; that

the Bible "throws you into a rage precisely as pure
"water brings on a paroxysm of hydrophobia."

Answer. Is it because the mind of the infidel is
poisoned, that he refuses to believe that an infinite
God commanded the murder of mothers, maidens and
babes? Is it because their minds are impure, that
they refuse to believe that a good God established
the institution of human slavery, or that he protected
it when established? Is it because their minds are
vile, that they refuse to believe that an infinite God
established or protected polygamy? Is it a sure
sign of an impure mind, when a man insists that
God never waged wars of extermination against his
helpless children? Does it show that a man has
been entirely given over to the devil, because he
refuses to believe that God ordered a father to sacri-
fice his son? Does it show that a heart is entirely
without mercy, simply because a man denies the
justice of eternal pain?

I denounce many parts of the Old Testament
because they are infinitely repugnant to my sense
of justice,—because they are bloody, brutal and in-
famous,—because they uphold crime and destroy
human liberty. It is impossible for me to imagine
a greater monster than the God of the Old Testa-

ment. He is unworthy of my worship. He com-
mands only my detestation, my execration, and my
passionate hatred. The God who commanded the
murder of children is an infamous fiend. The God
who believed in polygamy, is worthy only of con-
tempt. The God who established slavery should be
hated by every free man. The Jehovah of the Jews
was simply a barbarian, and the Old Testament is
mostly the barbarous record of a barbarous people.

If the Jehovah of the Jews is the real God, I do
not wish to be his friend. From him I neither ask,
nor expect, nor would I be willing to receive, even an
eternity of joy. According to the Old Testament,
he established a government,—a political state,—and
yet, no civilized country to-day would re-enact these
laws of God.

Question. What do you think of the explanation
given by Mr. Talmage of the stopping of the sun and
moon in the time of Joshua, in order that a battle
might be completed?

Answer. Of course, if there is an infinite God,
he could have stopped the sun and moon. No one
pretends to prescribe limits to the power of the
infinite. Even admitting that such a being existed,
the question whether he did stop the sun and moon,

or not, still remains. According to the account, these
planets were stopped, in order that Joshua might con-
tinue the pursuit of a routed enemy. I take it for
granted that a being of infinite wisdom would not
waste any force,—that he would not throw away any
"omnipotence," and that, under ordinary circum-
stances, he would husband his resources. I find that
this spirit exists, at least in embryo, in Mr. Talmage.
He proceeds to explain this miracle. He does not
assert that the earth was stopped on its axis, but sug-
gests "refraction" as a way out of the difficulty. Now,
while the stopping of the earth on its axis accounts for
the sun remaining in the same relative position, it does
not account for the stoppage of the moon. The moon
has a motion of its own, and even if the earth had been
stopped in its rotary motion, the moon would have gone
on. The Bible tells us that the moon was stopped. One
would suppose that the sun would have given sufficient
light for all practical purposes. Will Mr. Talmage be
kind enough to explain the stoppage of the moon?
Every one knows that the moon is somewhat obscure
when the sun is in the midst of the heavens. The moon
when compared with the sun at such a time, is much
like one of the discourses of Mr. Talmage side by side
with a chapter from Humboldt;—it is useless.

In the same chapter in which the account of the
stoppage of the sun and moon is given, we find that
God cast down from heaven great hailstones on
Joshua's enemies. Did he get out of hailstones?
Had he no "omnipotence" left? Was it necessary
for him to stop the sun and moon and depend entirely
upon the efforts of Joshua? Would not the force
employed in stopping the rotary motion of the earth
have been sufficient to destroy the enemy? Would
not a millionth part of the force necessary to stop the
moon, have pierced the enemy's centre, and rolled up
both his flanks? A resort to lightning would have
been, in my judgment, much more economical and
rather more effective. If he had simply opened the
earth, and swallowed them, as he did Korah and his
company, it would have been a vast saving of
"omnipotent" muscle. Yet, the foremost orthodox
minister of the Presbyterian Church,—the one who
calls all unbelievers "wolves and dogs," and "brazen
"fools," in his effort to account for this miracle, is
driven to the subterfuge of an "optical illusion."
We are seriously informed that "God probably
"changed the nature of the air," and performed this
feat of ledgerdemain through the instrumentality of
"refraction." It seems to me it would have been fully

as easy to have changed the nature of the air breathed
by the enemy, so that it would not have supported
life. He could have accomplished this by changing
only a little air, in that vicinity; whereas, according
to the Talmagian view, he changed the atmosphere
of the world. Or, a small "local flood" might have
done the work. The optical illusion and refraction
view, ingenious as it may appear, was not original
with Mr. Talmage. The Rev. Henry M. Morey, of
South Bend, Indiana, used, upon this subject, the fol-
lowing language; "The phenomenon was simply
"optical. The rotary motion of the earth was not
"disturbed, but the light of the sun was prolonged by
"the same laws of refraction and reflection by which
"the sun now appears to be above the horizon when
"it is really below. The medium through which the
"sun's rays passed, might have been miraculously
"influenced so as to have caused the sun to linger
"above the horizon long after its usual time for dis-
"appearance."

I pronounce the opinion of Mr. Morey to be the
ripest product of Christian scholarship. According to
the Morey-Talmage view, the sun lingered somewhat
above the horizon. But this is inconsistent with the
Bible account. We are not told in the Scriptures that

the sun "lingered above the horizon," but that it "stood
"still in the midst of heaven for about a whole day."
The trouble about the optical-illusion view is, that it
makes the day too long. If the air was miraculously
changed, so that it refracted the rays of the sun, while
the earth turned over as usual for about a whole day,
then, at the end of that time, the sun must have been
again visible in the east. It would then naturally
shine twelve hours more, so that this miraculous day
must have been at least thirty-six hours in length.
There were first twelve hours of natural light, then
twelve hours of refracted and reflected light, and then
twelve hours more of natural light. This makes the
day too long. So, I say to Mr. Talmage, as I said to
Mr. Morey: If you will depend a little less on
refraction, and a little more on reflection, you will see
that the whole story is a barbaric myth and foolish
fable.

For my part, I do not see why God should be
pleased to have me believe a story of this character.
I can hardly think that there is great joy in heaven
over another falsehood swallowed. I can imagine
that a man may deny this story, and still be an excel-
lent citizen, a good father, an obliging neighbor, and
in all respects a just and truthful man. I can also

imagine that a man may believe this story, and yet
assassinate a President of the United States.

I am afraid that Mr. Talmage is beginning to be
touched, in spite of himself, with some new ideas. He
tells us that worlds are born and that worlds die.
This is not exactly the Bible view. You would think
that he imagined that a world was naturally pro-
duced,—that the aggregation of atoms was natural,
and that disintegration came to worlds, as to men,
through old age. Yet this is not the Bible view.
According to the Bible, these worlds were not born,—
they were created out of "nothing," or out of
"omnipotence," which is much the same. According
to the Bible, it took this infinite God six days to make
this atom called earth; and according to the account,
he did not work nights,—he worked from the morn-
ings to the evenings,—and I suppose rested nights,
as he has since that time on Sundays.

Admitting that the battle which Joshua fought
was exceedingly important—which I do not think—
is it not a little strange that this God, in all subse-
quent battles of the world's history, of which we
know anything, has maintained the strictest neu-
trality? The earth turned as usual at Yorktown,
and at Gettysburg the moon pursued her usual

course; and so far as I know, neither at Waterloo
nor at Sedan were there any peculiar freaks of "re-
"fraction" or "reflection."

Question. Mr. Talmage tells us that there was in
the early part of this century a dark day, when
workmen went home from their fields, and legis-
latures and courts adjourned, and that the darkness
of that day has not yet been explained. What is
your opinion about that?

Answer. My opinion is, that if at that time we
had been at war with England, and a battle had
been commenced in the morning, and in the after-
noon the American forces had been driven from their
position and were hard pressed by the enemy, and
if the day had become suddenly dark, and so dark
that the Americans were thereby enabled to escape,
thousands of theologians of the calibre of Mr. Tal-
mage would have honestly believed that there had
been an interposition of divine Providence. No
battle was fought that day, and consequently, even
the ministers are looking for natural causes. In
olden times, when the heavens were visited by
comets, war, pestilence and famine were predicted.
If wars came, the prediction was remembered; if

nothing happened, it was forgotten. When eclipses
visited the sun and moon, the barbarian fell upon his
knees, and accounted for the phenomena by the
wickedness of his neighbor. Mr. Talmage tells us
that his father was terrified by the meteoric shower
that visited our earth in 1833. The terror of the
father may account for the credulity of the son.
Astronomers will be surprised to read the declaration
of Mr. Talmage that the meteoric shower has never
been explained. Meteors visit the earth every year
of its life, and in a certain portion of the orbit they
are always expected, and they always come. Mr.
Newcomb has written a work on astronomy that
all ministers ought to read.

Question. Mr. Talmage also charges you with
"making light of holy things," and seems to be aston-
ished that you should ridicule the anointing oil of
Aaron?

Answer. I find that the God who had no time to
say anything on the subject of slavery, and who found
no room upon the tables of stone to say a word
against polygamy, and in favor of the rights of
woman, wife and mother, took time to give a recipe
for making hair oil. And in order that the priests

might have the exclusive right to manufacture this oil,
decreed the penalty of death on all who should
infringe. I admit that I am incapable of seeing the
beauty of this symbol. Neither could I ever see the
necessity of Masons putting oil on the corner-stone
of a building. Of course, I do not know the exact
chemical effect that oil has on stone, and I see no harm
in laughing at such a ceremony. If the oil does good,
the laughter will do no harm; and if the oil will do no
harm, the laughter will do no good. Personally, I am
willing that Masons should put oil on all stones; but,
if Masons should insist that I must believe in the effi-
cacy of the ceremony, or be eternally damned, I
would have about the same feeling toward the
Masons that I now have toward Mr. Talmage. I
presume that at one time the putting of oil on a
corner-stone had some meaning; but that it ever did
any good, no sensible man will insist. It is a custom
to break a bottle of champagne over the bow of
a newly-launched ship, but I have never considered
this ceremony important to the commercial interests
of the world.

I have the same opinion about putting oil on
stones, as about putting water on heads. For my
part, I see no good in the rite of baptism. Still, it

may do no harm, unless people are immersed during
cold weather. Neither have I the slightest objection
to the baptism of anybody; but if people tell me that
I must be baptized or suffer eternal agony, then I deny
it. If they say that baptism does any earthly good, I
deny it. No one objects to any harmless ceremony;
but the moment it is insisted that a ceremony is neces-
sary, the reason of which no man can see, then the
practice of the ceremony becomes hurtful, for the
reason that it is maintained only at the expense of
intelligence and manhood.

It is hurtful for people to imagine that they can
please God by any ceremony whatever. If there is
any God, there is only one way to please him, and
that is, by a conscientious discharge of your obliga-
tions to your fellow-men. Millions of people imagine
that they can please God by wearing certain kinds
of cloth. Think of a God who can be pleased with
a coat of a certain cut! Others, to earn a smile of
heaven, shave their heads, or trim their beards, or
perforate their ears or lips or noses. Others maim
and mutilate their bodies. Others think to please
God by simply shutting their eyes, by swinging
censers, by lighting candles, by repeating poor Latin,
by making a sign of the cross with holy water, by

ringing bells, by going without meat, by eating fish,
by getting hungry, by counting beads, by making
themselves miserable Sundays, by looking solemn,
by refusing to marry, by hearing sermons; and
others imagine that they can please God by calumni-
ating unbelievers.

There is an old story of an Irishman who, when
dying, sent for a priest. The reputation of the
dying man was so perfectly miserable, that the priest
refused to administer the rite of extreme unction.
The priest therefore asked him if he could recollect
any decent action that he had ever done. The dying
man said that he could not. "Very well," said the
priest, "then you will have to be damned." In a
moment, the pinched and pale face brightened, and
he said to the priest: "I have thought of one good
"action." "What is it?" asked the priest. And the
dying man said, "Once I killed a gauger."

I suppose that in the next world some ministers,
driven to extremes, may reply: "Once I told a lie
"about an infidel."

Question. You see that Mr. Talmage still sticks to
the whale and Jonah story. What do you think of
his argument, or of his explanation, rather, of that
miracle?

Answer. The edge of his orthodoxy seems to be
crumbling. He tells us that "there is in the mouth
"of the common whale a cavity large enough for a
"man to live in without descent into his stomach,"—
and yet Christ says, that Jonah was in the whale's
belly, not in his mouth. But why should Mr. Tal-
mage say that? We are told in the sacred account
that "God prepared a great fish" for the sole pur-
pose of having Jonah swallowed. The size of the
present whale has nothing to do with the story. No
matter whether the throat of the whale of to-day is
large or small,—that has nothing to do with it. The
simple story is, that God prepared a fish and had
Jonah swallowed. And yet Mr. Talmage throws out
the suggestion that probably this whale held Jonah
in his mouth for three days and nights. I admit that
Jonah's chance for air would have been a little better
in his mouth, and his chance for water a little worse.
Probably the whale that swallowed Jonah was the
same fish spoken of by Procopius,—both accounts
being entitled, in my judgment, to equal credence.
I am a little surprised that Mr. Talmage forgot
to mention the fish spoken of by Munchausen—an
equally reliable author,—and who has given, not
simply the bald fact that a fish swallowed a ship, but

100

was good enough to furnish the details. Mr. Talmage
should remember that out of Jonah's biography
grew the habit of calling any remarkable lie, "a fish
"story." There is one thing that Mr. Talmage
should not forget; and that is, that miracles should
not be explained. Miracles are told simply to be
believed, not to be understood.

Somebody suggested to Mr. Talmage that, in
all probability, a person in the stomach of a whale
would be digested in less than three days. Mr. Tal-
mage, again showing his lack of confidence in God,
refusing to believe that God could change the nature
of gastric juice,—having no opportunity to rely
upon "refraction or reflection," frankly admits that
Jonah had to save himself by keeping on the
constant go and jump. This gastric-juice theory of
Mr. Talmage is an abandonment of his mouth hy-
pothesis. I do not wonder that Mr. Talmage thought
of the mouth theory. Possibly, the two theories had
better be united—so that we may say that Jonah,
when he got tired of the activity necessary to
avoid the gastric juice, could have strolled into
the mouth for a rest. What a picture! Jonah
sitting on the edge of the lower jaw, wiping the
perspiration and the gastric juice from his anxious

101

face, and vainly looking through the open mouth
for signs of land!

In this story of Jonah, we are told that "the Lord
"spake unto the fish." In what language? It must
be remembered that this fish was only a few hours
old. He had been prepared during the storm, for
the sole purpose of swallowing Jonah. He was a
fish of exceedingly limited experience. He had no
hereditary knowledge, because he did not spring
from ancestors; consequently, he had no instincts.
Would such a fish understand any language? It
may be contended that the fish, having been made
for the occasion, was given a sufficient knowledge
of language to understand an ordinary command-
ment; but, if Mr. Talmage is right, I think an order
to the fish would have been entirely unnecessary.
When we take into consideration that a thing the
size of a man had been promenading up and down
the stomach of this fish for three days and three
nights, successfully baffling the efforts of gastric
juice, we can readily believe that the fish was as
anxious to have Jonah go, as Jonah was to leave.

But the whale part is, after all, not the most won-
derful portion of the book of Jonah. According to
this wonderful account, "the word of the Lord came

102

"to Jonah," telling him to "go and cry against the
"city of Nineveh;" but Jonah, instead of going,
endeavored to evade the Lord by taking ship for
Tarshish. As soon as the Lord heard of this, he
"sent out a great wind into the sea," and frightened
the sailors to that extent that after assuring them-
selves, by casting lots, that Jonah was the man, they
threw him into the sea. After escaping from the
whale, he went to Nineveh, and delivered his pre-
tended message from God. In consequence of his
message, Jonah having no credentials from God,—
nothing certifying to his official character, the King
of Nineveh covered himself with sack-cloth and sat
down in some ashes. He then caused a decree to
be issued that every man and beast should abstain
from food and water; and further, that every man and
beast should be covered with sack-cloth. This was
done in the hope that Jonah's God would repent, and
turn away his fierce anger. When we take into con-
sideration the fact that the people of Nineveh were
not Hebrews, and had not the slightest confidence in
the God of the Jews—knew no more of, and cared no
more for, Jehovah than we now care for Jupiter, or
Neptune; the effect produced by the proclamation of
Jonah is, to say the least of it, almost incredible.

103

We are also informed, in this book, that the
moment God saw all the people sitting in the ashes,
and all the animals covered with sack-cloth, he
repented. This failure on the part of God to destroy
the unbelievers displeased Jonah exceedingly, and
he was very angry. Jonah was much like the
modern minister, who seems always to be personally
aggrieved if the pestilence and famine prophesied by
him do not come. Jonah was displeased to that
degree, that he asked God to kill him. Jonah then
went out of the city, even after God had repented,
made him a booth and sat under it, in the shade,
waiting to see what would become of the city. God
then "prepared a gourd, and made it to come up
"over Jonah that it might be a shadow over his
"head to deliver him from his grief." And then we
have this pathetic line: "So Jonah was exceedingly
"glad of the gourd."

God having prepared a fish, and also prepared
a gourd, proposed next morning to prepare a worm.
And when the sun rose next day, the worm that
God had prepared, "smote the gourd, so that
"it withered." I can hardly believe that an in-
finite being prepared a worm to smite a gourd
so that it withered, in order to keep the sun from

104

the bald head of a prophet. According to the
account, after sunrise, and after the worm had
smitten the gourd, "God prepared a vehement east
"wind." This was not an ordinary wind, but one
prepared expressly for that occasion. After the wind
had been prepared, "the sun beat upon the head of
"Jonah, and he fainted, and wished in himself to
"die." All this was done in order to convince
Jonah that a man who would deplore the loss of a
gourd, ought not to wish for the destruction of a city.

Is it possible for any intelligent man now to
believe that the history of Jonah is literally true?
For my part, I cannot see the necessity either of
believing it, or of preaching it. It has nothing to do
with honesty, with mercy, or with morality. The
bad may believe it, and the good may hold it in
contempt. I do not see that civilization has the
slightest interest in the fish, the gourd, the worm, or
the vehement east wind.

Does Mr. Talmage think that it is absolutely neces-
sary to believe all the story? Does he not think it
probable that a God of infinite mercy, rather than
damn the soul of an honest man to hell forever, would
waive, for instance, the worm,—provided he believed
in the vehement east wind, the gourd and the fish?

105

Mr. Talmage, by insisting on the literal truth of
the Bible stories, is doing Christianity great harm.
Thousands of young men will say: "I can't become
"a Christian if it is necessary to believe the adven-
"tures of Jonah." Mr. Talmage will put into the
paths of multitudes of people willing to do right,
anxious to make the world a little better than it is,—
this stumbling block. He could have explained it,
called it an allegory, poetical license, a child of the
oriental imagination, a symbol, a parable, a poem, a
dream, a legend, a myth, a divine figure, or a great
truth wrapped in the rags and shreds and patches of
seeming falsehood. His efforts to belittle the miracle,
to suggest the mouth instead of the stomach,—to
suggest that Jonah took deck passage, or lodged in
the forecastle instead of in the cabin or steerage,—
to suggest motion as a means of avoiding digestion,
is a serious theological blunder, and may cause the
loss of many souls.

If Mr. Talmage will consult with other ministers,
they will tell him to let this story alone—that he will
simply "provoke investigation and discussion"—two
things to be avoided. They will tell him that they
are not willing their salary should hang on so slender
a thread, and will advise him not to bother his gourd

106

about Jonah's. They will also tell him that in this
age of the world, arguments cannot be answered by
"a vehement east wind."

Some people will think that it would have been
just as easy for God to have pulled the gourd up, as
to have prepared a worm to bite it.

Question. Mr. Talmage charges that you have
said there are indecencies in the Bible. Are you
still of that opinion?

Answer. Mr. Talmage endeavors to evade the
charge, by saying that "there are things in the Bible
"not intended to be read, either in the family circle,
"or in the pulpit, but nevertheless they are to be
"read." My own judgment is, that an infinite being
should not inspire the writing of indecent things.
It will not do to say, that the Bible description of sin
"warns and saves." There is nothing in the history
of Tamar calculated to "warn and save and the
same may be said of many other passages in the
Old Testament. Most Christians would be glad
to know that all such passages are interpolations.
I regret that Shakespeare ever wrote a line that
could not be read any where, and by any person.
But Shakespeare, great as he was, did not rise en-

107

tirely above his time. So of most poets. Nearly all
have stained their pages with some vulgarity; and I
am sorry for it, and hope the time will come when
we shall have an edition of all the great writers and
poets from which every such passage is elimi-
nated.

It is with the Bible as with most other books. It
is a mingling of good and bad. There are many
exquisite passages in the Bible,—many good laws,—
many wise sayings,—and there are many passages
that should never have been written. I do not pro-
pose to throw away the good on account of the
bad, neither do I propose to accept the bad on
account of the good. The Bible need not be taken
as an entirety. It is the business of every man who
reads it, to discriminate between that which is good
and that which is bad. There are also many passages
neither good nor bad,—wholly and totally indifferent
—conveying 110 information—utterly destitute of
ideas,—and as to these passages, my only objection
to them is that they waste time and paper.

I am in favor of every passage in the Bible that
conveys information. I am in favor of every wise
proverb, of every verse coming from human ex-
perience and that appeals to the heart of man. I am

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in favor of every passage that inculcates justice,
generosity, purity, and mercy. I am satisfied that
much of the historical part is false. Some of it
is probably true. Let us have the courage to take
the true, and throw the false away. I am satisfied
that many of the passages are barbaric, and many of
them are good. Let us have the wisdom to accept
the good and to reject the barbaric.

No system of religion should go in partnership
with barbarism. Neither should any Christian feel
it his duty to defend the savagery of the past. The
philosophy of Christ must stand independently of the
mistakes of the Old Testament. We should do jus-
tice whether a woman was made from a rib or from
"omnipotence." We should be merciful whether
the flood was general, or local. We should be kind
and obliging whether Jonah was swallowed by a fish
or not. The miraculous has nothing to do with the
moral. Intelligence is of more value than inspiration.
Brain is better than Bible. Reason is above all
religion. I do not believe that any civilized human
being clings to the Bible on account of its barbaric
passages. I am candid enough to believe that every
Christian in the world would think more of the Bible,
if it had not upheld slavery, if it had denounced

109

polygamy, if it had cried out against wars of exter-
mination, if it had spared women and babes, if it had
upheld everywhere, and at all times, the standard of
justice and mercy. But when it is claimed that the
book is perfect, that it is inspired, that it is, in fact,
the work of an infinitely wise and good God,—then
it should be without a defect. There should not be
within its lids an impure word; it should not express
an impure thought. There should not be one word
in favor of injustice, not one word in favor of slavery,
not one word in favor of wars of extermination.
There must be another revision of the Scriptures.
The chaff must be thrown away. The dross must
be rejected; and only that be retained which is in
exact harmony with the brain and heart of the
greatest and the best.

Question. Mr. Talmage charges you with unfair-
ness, because you account for the death of art in
Palestine, by the commandment which forbids the
making of graven images.

Answer. I have said that that commandment was
the death of art, and I say so still. I insist that by
reason of that commandment, Palestine produced no
painter and no sculptor until after the destruction of

110

Jerusalem. Mr. Talmage, in order to answer that
statement, goes on to show that hundreds and thou-
sands of pictures were produced in the Middle Ages.
That is a departure in pleading. Will he give us the
names of the painters that existed in Palestine from
Mount Sinai to the destruction of the temple? Will
he give us the names of the sculptors between those
times? Mohammed prohibited his followers from
making any representation of human or animal life,
and as a result, Mohammedans have never produced
a painter nor a sculptor, except in the portrayal and
chiseling of vegetable forms. They were confined
to trees and vines, and flowers. No Mohammedan
has portrayed the human face or form. But the
commandment of Jehovah went farther than that of
Momammed, and prevented portraying the image of
anything. The assassination of art was complete.

There is another thing that should not be forgotten.

We are indebted for the encouragement of
art, not to the Protestant Church; if indebted to any,
it is to the Catholic. The Catholic adorned the cathedral

with painting and statue—not the Protestant.
The Protestants opposed music and painting, and
refused to decorate their temples. But if Mr. Tal-
mage wishes to know to whom we are indebted for

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art, let him read the mythology of Greece and Rome.
The early Christians destroyed paintings and statues.
They were the enemies of all beauty. They hated
and detested every expression of art. They looked
upon the love of statues as a form of idolatry. They
looked upon every painting as a remnant of Pagan-
ism. They destroyed all upon which they could lay
their ignorant hands. Hundred of years afterwards,
the world was compelled to search for the fragments
that Christian fury had left. The Greeks filled the
world with beauty. For every stream and mountain
and cataract they had a god or goddess. Their
sculptors impersonated every dream and hope, and
their mythology feeds, to-day, the imagination of
mankind. The Venus de Milo is the impersonation
of beauty, in ruin—the sublimest fragment of the
ancient world. Our mythology is infinitely unpoetic
and barren—our deity an old bachelor from eternity,
who once believed in indiscriminate massacre. Upon
the throne of our heaven, woman finds no place.
Our mythology is destitute of the maternal.

Question. Mr. Talmage denies your statement
that the Old Testament humiliates woman. He also
denies that the New Testament says anything
against woman. How is it?

112

Answer. Of course, I never considered a book up-
holding polygamy to be the friend of woman. Eve,
according to that book, is the mother of us all, and
yet the inspired writer does not tell us how long she
lived,—does not even mention her death,—makes
not the slightest reference as to what finally became
of her. Methuselah lived nine hundred and sixty-
nine years, and yet, there is not the slightest mention
made of Mrs. Methuselah. Enoch was translated,
and his widow is not mentioned. There is not a
word about Mrs. Seth, or Mrs. Enos, or Mrs. Cainan,
or Mrs. Mahalaleel, or Mrs. Jared. We do not
know the name of Mrs. Noah, and I believe not the
name of a solitary woman is given from the creation
of Eve—with the exception of two of Lamech's
wives—until Sarai is mentioned as being the wife
of Abram.

If you wish really to know the Bible estimation of
woman, turn to the fourth and fifth verses of the
twelfth chapter of Leviticus, in which a woman, for
the crime of having borne a son, is unfit to touch a
hallowed thing, or to come in the holy sanctuary for
thirty-three days; but if a woman was the mother
of a girl, then she became totally unfit to enter the
sanctuary, or pollute with her touch a hallowed thing,

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for sixty-six days. The pollution was twice as great
when she had borne a daughter.

It is a little difficult to see why it is a greater crime
to give birth to a daughter than to a son. Surely, a
law like that did not tend to the elevation of woman.
You will also find in the same chapter that a woman
had to offer a pigeon, or a turtle-dove, as a sin offer-
ing, in order to expiate the crime of having become a
mother. By the Levitical law, a mother was unclean.
The priest had to make an atonement for her.

If there is, beneath the stars, a figure of complete
and perfect purity, it is a mother holding in her arms
her child. The laws respecting women, given by
commandment of Jehovah to the Jews, were born of
barbarism, and in this day and age should be re-
garded only with detestation and contempt. The
twentieth and twenty-first verses of the nineteenth
chapter of Leviticus show that the same punishment
was not meted to men and women guilty of the
same crime.

The real explanation of what we find in the Old
Testament degrading to woman, lies in the fact, that
the overflow of Love's mysterious Nile—the sacred
source of life—was, by its savage authors, deemed
unclean.

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Question. But what have you to say about the
women of the Bible, mentioned by Mr. Talmage,
and held up as examples for all time of all that is
sweet and womanly?

Answer. I believe that Esther is his principal
heroine. Let us see who she was.

According to the book of Esther, Ahasuerus who
was king of Persia, or some such place, ordered
Vashti his queen to show herself to the people
and the princes, because she was "exceedingly fair
"to look upon." For some reason—modesty per-
haps—she refused to appear. And thereupon the
king "sent letters into all his provinces and to every
"people after their language, that every man should
"bear rule in his own house;" it being feared that
if it should become public that Vashti had disobeyed,
all other wives might follow her example. The king
also, for the purpose of impressing upon all women
the necessity of obeying their husbands, issued a
decree that "Vashti should come no more before
"him," and that he would "give her royal estate
"unto another." This was done that "all the
"wives should give to their husbands honor, both to
"great and small."

After this, "the king appointed officers in all the

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"provinces of his kingdom that they might gather
"together all the fair young virgins," and bring
them to his palace, put them in the custody of

his chamberlain, and have them thoroughly washed.
Then the king was to look over the lot and take
each day the one that pleased him best until he found
the one to put in the place of Vashti. A fellow by
the name of Mordecai, living in that part of the
country, hearing of the opportunity to sell a girl,
brought Esther, his uncle's daughter,—she being an
orphan, and very beautiful—to see whether she
might not be the lucky one.

The remainder of the second chapter of this
book, I do not care to repeat. It is sufficient to say
that Esther at last was chosen.

The king at this time did not know that Esther
was a Jewess. Mordecai her kinsman, however,
discovered a plot to assassinate the king, and Esther
told the king, and the two plotting gentlemen were
hanged on a tree.

After a while, a man by the name of Haman was
made Secretary of State, and everybody coming in
his presence bowed except Mordecai. Mordecai was
probably depending on the influence of Esther.
Haman finally became so vexed, that he made up

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his mind to have all the Jews in the kingdom
destroyed. (The number of Jews at that time
in Persia must have been immense.) Haman there-
upon requested the king to have an order issued to
destroy all the Jews, and in consideration of the
order, proposed to pay ten thousand talents of silver.
And thereupon, letters were written to the governors
of the various provinces, sealed with the king's ring,
sent by post in all directions, with instructions to kill
all the Jews, both young and old—little children and
women,—in one day. (One would think that the
king copied this order from another part of the Old
Testament, or had found an original by Jehovah.) The
people immediately made preparations for the killing.
Mordecai clothed himself with sack-cloth, and Esther
called upon one of the king's chamberlains, and she
finally got the history of the affair, as well as a copy
of the writing, and thereupon made up her mind to
go in and ask the king to save her people.

At that time, Bismarck's idea of government being
in full force, any one entering the king's presence with-
out an invitation, was liable to be put to death. And
in case any one did go in to see the king, if the king
failed to hold out his golden sceptre, his life was not
spared. Notwithstanding this order, Esther put on

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her best clothes, and stood in the inner court of the
king's house, while the king sat on his royal throne.
When the king saw her standing in the court, he
held out his sceptre, and Esther drew near, and he
asked her what she wished; and thereupon she
asked that the king and Haman might take dinner
with her that day, and it was done. While they were
feasting, the king again asked Esther what she
wanted; and her second request was, that they
would come and dine with her once more. When
Haman left the palace that day, he saw Mordecai
again at the gate, standing as stiffly as usual, and it
filled Haman with indignation. So Haman, taking
the advice of his wife, made a gallows fifty cubits
high, for the special benefit of Mordecai. The next
day, when Haman went to see the king, the king,
having the night before refreshed his memory in
respect to the service done him by Mordecai, asked
Haman what ought to be done for the man whom
the king wished to honor. Haman, supposing of
course that the king referred to him, said that royal
purple ought to be brought forth, such as the king
wore, and the horse that the king rode on, and the
crown-royal should be set on the man's head;—that
one of the most noble princes should lead the horse,

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and as he went through the streets, proclaim: "Thus
"shall it be done to the man whom the king de-
"lighteth to honor."

Thereupon the king told Haman that Mordecai
was the man that the king wished to honor. And
Haman was forced to lead this horse, backed by
Mordecai, through the streets, shouting: "This shall
"be done to the man whom the king delighteth to
"honor." Immediately afterward, he went to the
banquet that Esther had prepared, and the king
again asked Esther her petition. She then asked
for the salvation of her people; stating at the same
time, that if her people had been sold into slavery,
she would have held her tongue; but since they
were about to be killed, she could not keep silent.
The king asked her who had done this thing; and
Esther replied that it was the wicked Haman.

Thereupon one of the chamberlains, remembering
the gallows that had been made for Mordecai, men-
tioned it, and the king immediately ordered that
Haman be hanged thereon; which was done. And
Mordecai immediately became Secretary of State.
The order against the Jews was then rescinded; and
Ahasuerus, willing to do anything that Esther de-
sired, hanged all of Haman's folks. He not only did

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this, but he immediately issued an order to all the
Jews allowing them to kill the other folks. And the
Jews got together throughout one hundred and
twenty-seven provinces, "and such was their power,
"that no man could stand against them; and there-
"upon the Jews smote all their enemies with the
"stroke of the sword, and with slaughter and de-
"struction, and did whatever they pleased to those
"who hated them." And in the palace of the king,
the Jews slew and destroyed five hundred men, besides
ten sons of Haman; and in the rest of the provinces,
they slew seventy-five thousand people. And after
this work of slaughter, the Jews had a day of glad-
ness and feasting.

One can see from this, what a beautiful Bible
character Esther was—how filled with all that is
womanly, gentle, kind and tender!

This story is one of the most unreasonable, as well
as one of the most heartless and revengeful, in the
whole Bible. Ahasuerus was a monster, and Esther
equally infamous; and yet, this woman is held up for
the admiration of mankind by a Brooklyn pastor.
There is this peculiarity about the book of Esther:
the name of God is not mentioned in it, and the
deity is not referred to, directly or indirectly;—yet

120

it is claimed to be an inspired book. If Jehovah
wrote it, he certainly cannot be charged with
egotism.

I most cheerfully admit that the book of Ruth is
quite a pleasant story, and the affection of Ruth for
her mother-in-law exceedingly touching, but I am of
opinion that Ruth did many things that would be re-
garded as somewhat indiscreet, even in the city of
Brooklyn.

All I can find about Hannah is, that she made a
little coat for her boy Samuel, and brought it to him
from year to year. Where he got his vest and
pantaloons we are not told. But this fact seems
hardly enough to make her name immortal.

So also Mr. Talmage refers us to the wonderful
woman Abigail. The story about Abigail, told in
plain English, is this: David sent some of his fol-
lowers to Nabal, Abigail's husband, and demanded
food. Nabal, who knew nothing about David, and
cared less, refused. Abigail heard about it, and took
food to David and his servants. She was very much
struck, apparently, with David and David with her.
A few days afterward Nabal died—supposed to have
been killed by the Lord—but probably poisoned;
and thereupon David took Abigail to wife. The

121

whole matter should have been investigated by the
grand jury.

We are also referred to Dorcas, who no doubt was a
good woman—made clothes for the poor and gave
alms, as millions have done since then. It seems
that this woman died. Peter was sent for, and there-
upon raised her from the dead, and she is never men-
tioned any more. Is it not a little strange that a
woman who had been actually raised from the dead,
should have so completely passed out of the memory
of her time, that when she died the second time, she
was entirely unnoticed?

Is it not astonishing that so little is in the New
Testament concerning the mother of Christ? My
own opinion is, that she was an excellent woman, and
the wife of Joseph; and that Joseph was the actual
father of Christ. I think there can be no reasonable
doubt that such was the opinion of the authors of the
original gospels. Upon any other hypothesis, it is
impossible to account for their having given the
genealogy of Joseph to prove that Christ was of the
blood of David. The idea that he was the Son of
God, or in any way miraculously produced, was an
afterthought, and is hardly entitled now to serious
consideration. The gospels were written so long after

122

the death of Christ, that very little was known of him,
and substantially nothing of his parents. How is it
that not one word is said about the death of Mary—
not one word about the death of Joseph? How did
it happen that Christ did not visit his mother after his
resurrection? The first time he speaks to his mother
is when he was twelve years old. His mother having
told him that she and his father had been seeking
him, he replied: "How is it that ye sought me: wist
"ye not that I must be about my Father s business?"

The second time was at the marriage feast in Cana,
when he said to her: "Woman, what have I to do
"with thee?" And the third time was at the cross,
when "Jesus, seeing his mother standing by the
"disciple whom he loved, said to her: Woman, be-
"hold thy son;" and to the disciple: "Behold thy
"mother." And this is all.

The best thing about the Catholic Church is
the deification of Mary,—and yet this is denounced
by Protestantism as idolatry. There is something
in the human heart that prompts man to tell his faults
more freely to the mother than to the father. The
cruelty of Jehovah is softened by the mercy of
Mary.

Is it not strange that none of the disciples of Christ

123

said anything about their parents,—that we know
absolutely nothing of them? Is there any evidence
that they showed any particular respect even for the
mother of Christ?

Mary Magdalen is, in many respects, the tenderest
and most loving character in the New Testament.
According to the account, her love for Christ knew
no abatement,—no change—true even in the hopeless
shadow of the cross. Neither did it die with his
death. She waited at the sepulchre; she hasted in
the early morning to his tomb, and yet the only
comfort Christ gave to this true and loving soul lies
in these strangely cold and heartless words: "Touch
"me not."

There is nothing tending to show that the women
spoken of in the Bible were superior to the ones we
know. There are to-day millions of women making
coats for their sons,—hundreds of thousands of
women, true not simply to innocent people, falsely
accused, but to criminals. Many a loving heart is
as true to the gallows as Mary was to the cross.
There are hundreds of thousands of women accept-
ing poverty and want and dishonor, for the love they
bear unworthy men; hundreds and thousands, hun-
dreds and thousands, working day and night, with

124

strained eyes and tired hands, for husbands and
children,—clothed in rags, housed in huts and hovels,
hoping day after day for the angel of death. There are
thousands of women in Christian England, working in
iron, laboring in the fields and toiling in mines. There
are hundreds and thousands in Europe, everywhere,
doing the work of men—deformed by toil, and who
would become simply wild and ferocious beasts,
except for the love they bear for home and child.

You need not go back four thousand years for
heroines. The world is filled with them to-day.
They do not belong to any nation, nor to any religion,
nor exclusively to any race. Wherever woman is
found, they are found.

There is no description of any women in the Bible
that equal thousands and thousands of women known
to-day. The women mentioned by Mr. Talmage fall
almost infinitely below, not simply those in real life, but
the creations of the imagination found in the world of
fiction. They will not compare with the women born
of Shakespeare's brain. You will find none like
Isabella, in whose spotless life, love and reason
blended into perfect truth; nor Juliet, within whose
heart passion and purity met, like white and red within
the bosom of a rose; nor Cordelia, who chose to

125

suffer loss rather than show her wealth of love with
those who gilded dross with golden words in hope
of gain; nor Miranda, who told her love as freely
as a flower gives its bosom to the kisses of the sun;
nor Imogene, who asked: "What is it to be false?"
nor Hermione, who bore with perfect faith and hope
the cross of shame, and who at last forgave with all
her heart; nor Desdemona, her innocence so perfect
and her love so pure, that she was incapable of sus-
pecting that another could suspect, and sought with
dying words to hide her lover's crime.

If we wish to find what the Bible thinks of
woman, all that is necessary to do is to read it.
We will find that everywhere she is spoken of
simply as property,—as belonging absolutely to the
man. We will find that whenever a man got tired
of his wife, all he had to do was to give her a writing
of divorcement, and that then the mother of his
children became a houseless and a homeless wanderer.
We will find that men were allowed to have as
many wives as they could get, either by courtship,
purchase, or conquest. The Jewish people in the
olden time were in many respects like their barbarian
neighbors.

If we read the New Testament, we will find in the

126

epistle of Paul to Timothy, the following gallant
passages:

"Let the woman learn in silence, with all
"subjection."

"But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp
"authority over the man, but to be in silence."

And for these kind, gentle and civilized remarks,
the apostle Paul gives the following reasons:

"For Adam was first formed, then Eve."

"And Adam was not deceived, but the woman
"being deceived was in the transgression."

Certainly women ought to feel under great obli-
gation to the apostle Paul.

In the fifth chapter of the same epistle, Paul,
advising Timothy as to what kind of people he
should admit into his society or church, uses the
following language:

"Let not a widow be taken into the number under
"threescore years old, having been the wife of one
"man."

"But the younger widows refuse, for when they
"have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they will
"marry."

This same Paul did not seem to think polygamy
wrong, except in a bishop. He tells Timothy that:

127

"A bishop must be blameless, the husband of one
"wife."

He also lays down the rule that a deacon should be
the husband of one wife, leaving us to infer that the
other members might have as many as they could get.

In the second epistle to Timothy, Paul speaks of
"grandmother Lois," who was referred to in such
extravagant language by Mr. Talmage, and nothing
is said touching her character in the least. All her
virtues live in the imagination, and in the imagina-
tion alone.

Paul, also, in his epistle to the Ephesians, says:

"Wives, submit yourselves unto your own hus-
"bands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the
"head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the
"church."

"Therefore, as the church is subject unto Christ,
"so let the wives be to their own husbands, in
"everything."

You will find, too, that in the seventh chapter of
First Corinthians, Paul laments that all men are not
bachelors like himself, and in the second verse of
that chapter he gives the only reason for which he
was willing that men and women should marry. He
advised all the unmarried, and all widows, to remain

128

as he was. In the ninth verse of this same chapter
is a slander too vulgar for repetition,—an estimate
of woman and of woman's love so low and vile, that
every woman should hold the inspired author in
infinite abhorrence.

Paul sums up the whole matter, however, by telling
those who have wives or husbands, to stay with
them—as necessary evils only to be tolerated—but
sincerely regrets that anybody was ever married;
and finally says that:

"They that have wives should be as though they
"had none;" because, in his opinion:

"He that is unmarried careth for the things that
"belong to the Lord, how he may please the Lord;
"but he that is married careth for the things that are
"of the world, how he may please his wife."

"There is this difference also," he tells us, "be-
"tween a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman
"careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be
"holy both in body and in spirit; but she that is
"married careth for the things of the world, how she
" may please her husband."

Of course, it is contended that these things have
tended to the elevation of woman.

The idea that it is better to love the Lord than to

129

love your wife, or your husband, is infinitely absurd.
Nobody ever did love the Lord,—nobody can—until
he becomes acquainted with him.

Saint Paul also tells us that "Man is the image
"and glory of God; but woman is the glory of
"man;" and for the purpose of sustaining this posi-
tion, says:

"For the man is not of the woman, but the woman
"of the man; neither was the man created for the
"woman, but the woman for the man."

Of course, we can all see that man could have
gotten along well enough without woman, but woman,
by no possibility, could have gotten along without
man. And yet, this is called "inspired;" and this
apostle Paul is supposed to have known more than
all the people now upon the earth. No wonder Paul
at last was constrained to say: "We are fools for
"Christ's sake."

Question. How do you account for the present
condition of woman in what is known as "the civilized
"world," unless the Bible has bettered her condition?

Answer. We must remember that thousands of
things enter into the problem of civilization. Soil,
climate, and geographical position, united with count-

130

less other influences, have resulted in the civilization
of our time. If we want to find what the influence of
the Bible has been, we must ascertain the condition
of Europe when the Bible was considered as abso-
lutely true, and when it wielded its greatest influence.

Christianity as a form of religion had actual posses-
sion of Europe during the Middle Ages. At that
time, it exerted its greatest power. Then it had the
opportunity of breaking the shackles from the limbs
of woman. Christianity found the Roman matron a
free woman. Polygamy was never known in Rome;
and although divorces were allowed by law, the
Roman state had been founded for more than five
hundred years before either a husband or a wife
asked for a divorce. From the foundation of Chris-
tianity,—I mean from the time it became the force in
the Roman state,—woman, as such, went down in
the scale of civilization. The sceptre was taken from
her hands, and she became once more the slave and
serf of man. The men also were made slaves, and
woman has regained her liberty by the same means
that man has regained his,—by wresting authority
from the hands of the church. While the church had
power, the wife and mother was not considered as
good as the begging nun; the husband and father
was far below the vermin-covered monk; homes
were of no value compared with the cathedral; for
God had to have a house, no matter how many of
his children were wanderers. During all the years in
which woman has struggled for equal liberty with
man, she has been met with the Bible doctrine that
she is the inferior of the man; that Adam was made
first, and Eve afterwards; that man was not made for
woman, but that woman was made for man.

I find that in this day and generation, the meanest
men have the lowest estimate of woman; that the
greater the man is, the grander he is, the more he
thinks of mother, wife and daughter. I also find that
just in the proportion that he has lost confidence in the
polygamy of Jehovah and in the advice and philosophy
of Saint Paul, he believes in the rights and liberties of
woman. As a matter of fact, men have risen from a
perusal of the Bible, and murdered their wives. They
have risen from reading its pages, and inflicted cruel
and even mortal blows upon their children. Men
have risen from reading the Bible and torn the flesh
of others with red-hot pincers. They have laid
down the sacred volume long enough to pour molten
lead into the ears of others. They have stopped
reading the sacred Scriptures for a sufficient time to

132

incarcerate their fellow-men, to load them with chains,
and then they have gone back to their reading,
allowing their victims to die in darkness and despair.
Men have stopped reading the Old Testament long
enough to drive a stake into the ground and collect a
few fagots and burn an honest man. Even ministers
have denied themselves the privilege of reading the
sacred book long enough to tell falsehoods about
their fellow-men. There is no crime that Bible
readers and Bible believers and Bible worshipers and
Bible defenders have not committed. There is no
meanness of which some Bible reader, believer, and
defender, has not been guilty. Bible believers and
Bible defenders have filled the world with calumnies
and slanders. Bible believers and Bible defenders
have not only whipped their wives, but they have
murdered them; they have murdered their children.
I do not say that reading the Bible will necessarily
make men dishonest, but I do say, that reading the
Bible will not prevent their committing crimes. I do
not say that believing the Bible will necessarily make
men commit burglary, but I do say that a belief in the
Bible has caused men to persecute each other, to
imprison each other, and to burn each other.

Only a little while ago, a British clergyman mur-

133

dered his wife. Only a little while ago, an American
Protestant clergyman whipped his boy to death be-
cause the boy refused to say a prayer.

The Rev. Mr. Crowley not only believed the Bible,
but was licensed to expound it. He had been
"called" to the ministry, and upon his head had
been laid the holy hands; and yet, he deliberately
starved orphans, and while looking upon their
sunken eyes and hollow cheeks, sung pious hymns
and quoted with great unction: "Suffer little chil-
"dren to come unto me."

As a matter of fact, in the last twenty years,
more money has been stolen by Christian cashiers,
Christian presidents, Christian directors, Christian
trustees and Christian statesmen, than by all other
convicts in all the penitentiaries in all the Christian
world.

The assassin of Henry the Fourth was a Bible reader
and a Bible believer. The instigators of the massacre
of St. Bartholomew were believers in your sacred
Scriptures. The men who invested their money in the
slave-trade believed themselves filled with the Holy
Ghost, and read with rapture the Psalms of David and
the Sermon on the Mount. The murderers of Scotch
Presbyterians were believers in Revelation, and the

134
Presbyterians, when they murdered others, were also
believers. Nearly every man who expiates a crime
upon the gallows is a believer in the Bible. For a
thousand years, the daggers of assassination and the
swords of war were blest by priests—by the believers
in the sacred Scriptures. The assassin of President
Garfield is a believer in the Bible, a hater of infidelity,
a believer in personal inspiration, and he expects in a
few weeks to join the winged and redeemed in
heaven.

If a man would follow, to-day, the teachings of the
Old Testament, he would be a criminal. If he would
follow strictly the teachings of the New, he would be
insane.

FOURTH INTERVIEW.

Son. There is no devil.

Mother. I know there is.

Son. How do you know?

Mother. Because they make pictures that look just
like him.

Son. But, mother—

Mother. Don't "mother" me! You are trying to
disgrace your parents.

Question. I want to ask you a few questions about
Mr. Talmage's fourth sermon against you, entitled:
"The Meanness of Infidelity," in which he compares
you to Jehoiakim, who had the temerity to throw
some of the writings of the weeping Jeremiah into
the fire?

Answer. So far as I am concerned, I really re-
gret that a second edition of Jeremiah's roll was
gotten out. It would have been far better for us all,
if it had been left in ashes. There was nothing but
curses and prophecies of evil, in the sacred roll that

138

Jehoiakim burned. The Bible tells us that Jehovah
became exceedingly wroth because of the destruction
of this roll, and pronounced a curse upon Jehoiakim
and upon Palestine. I presume it was on account of
the burning of that roll that the king of Babylon
destroyed the chosen people of God. It was on
account of that sacrilege that the Lord said of
Jehoiakim: "He shall have none to sit upon the
"throne of David; and his dead body shall be cast
"out in the day to the heat, and in the night to the
"frost." Any one can see how much a dead body
would suffer under such circumstances. Imagine an
infinitely wise, good and powerful God taking ven-
geance on the corpse of a barbarian king! What
joy there must have been in heaven as the angels
watched the alternate melting and freezing of the
dead body of Jehoiakim!

Jeremiah was probably the most accomplished
croaker of all time. Nothing satisfied him. He was
a prophetic pessimist,—an ancient Bourbon. He
was only happy when predicting war, pestilence and
famine. No wonder Jehoiakim despised him, and
hated all he wrote.

One can easily see the character of Jeremiah from
the following occurrence: When the Babylonians

139

had succeeded in taking Jerusalem, and in sacking
the city, Jeremiah was unfortunately taken prisoner;
but Captain Nebuzaradan came to Jeremiah, and told
him that he would let him go, because he had pro-
phesied against his own country. He was regarded
as a friend by the enemy.

There was, at that time, as now, the old fight
between the church and the civil power. Whenever
a king failed to do what the priests wanted, they
immediately prophesied overthrow, disaster, and de-
feat. Whenever the kings would hearken to their
voice, and would see to it that the priests had plenty
to eat and drink and wear, then they all declared
that Jehovah would love that king, would let him live
out all his days, and allow his son to reign in his
stead. It was simply the old conflict that is still being
waged, and it will be carried on until universal civil-
ization does away with priestcraft and superstition.

The priests in the days of Jeremiah were the same
as now. They sought to rule the State. They pre-
tended that, at their request, Jehovah would withhold
or send the rain; that the seasons were within their
power; that they with bitter words could blight the
fields and curse the land with want and death. They
gloried then, as now, in the exhibition of God's wrath.

140

In prosperity, the priests were forgotten. Success
scorned them; Famine flattered them; Health laughed
at them; Pestilence prayed to them; Disaster was
their only friend.

These old prophets prophesied nothing but evil,
and consequently, when anything bad happened, they
claimed it as a fulfillment, and pointed with pride to
the fact that they had, weeks or months, or years
before, foretold something of that kind. They were
really the originators of the phrase, "I told you so!"

There was a good old Methodist class-leader that
lived down near a place called Liverpool, on the
Illinois river. In the spring of 1861 the old man,
telling his experience, among other things said, that he
had lived there by the river for more than thirty
years, and he did not believe that a year had passed
that there were not hundreds of people during the
hunting season shooting ducks on Sunday; that he
had told his wife thousands of times that no good
would come of it; that evil would come of it; "And
"now, said the old man, raising his voice with the
importance of the announcement, "war is upon us!"

Question. Do you wish, as Mr. Talmage says, to de-
stroy the Bible—to have all the copies burned to ashes?
What do you wish to have done with the Bible?

141

Answer. I want the Bible treated exactly as we
treat other books—preserve the good and throw
away the foolish and the hurtful. I am fighting the
doctrine of inspiration. As long as it is believed that
the Bible is inspired, that book is the master—no
mind is free. With that belief, intellectual liberty is
impossible. With that belief, you can investigate
only at the risk of losing your soul. The Catholics
have a pope. Protestants laugh at them, and yet the
pope is capable of intellectual advancement. In
addition to this, the pope is mortal, and the church
cannot be afflicted with the same idiot forever. The
Protestants have a book for their pope. The book
cannot advance. Year after year, and century after
century, the book remains as ignorant as ever. It is
only made better by those who believe in its inspira-
tion giving better meanings to the words than their
ancestors did. In this way it may be said that the
Bible grows a little better.

Why should we have a book for a master? That
which otherwise might be a blessing, remains a curse.
If every copy of the Bible were destroyed, all that is
good in that book would be reproduced in a single
day. Leave every copy of the Bible as it is, and
have every human being believe in its inspiration,

142

and intellectual liberty would cease to exist. The
whole race, from that moment, would go back to-
ward the night of intellectual death.

The Bible would do more harm if more people
really believed it, and acted in accordance with its
teachings. Now and then a Freeman puts the knife
to the heart of his child. Now and then an assassin
relies upon some sacred passage; but, as a rule, few
men believe the Bible to be absolutely true.

There are about fifteen hundred million people in
the world. There are not two million who have read
the Bible through. There are not two hundred
million who ever saw the Bible. There are not five
hundred million who ever heard that such a book
exists.

Christianity is claimed to be a religion for all
mankind. It was founded more than eighteen cen-
turies ago; and yet, not one human being in three
has ever heard of it. As a matter of fact, for more
than fourteen centuries and-a-half after the crucifixion
of Christ, this hemisphere was absolutely unknown.
There was not a Christian in the world who knew
there was such a continent as ours, and all the
inhabitants of this, the New World, were deprived
of the gospel for fourteen centuries and-a-half, and

143

knew nothing of its blessings until they were in-
formed by Spanish murderers and marauders. Even
in the United States, Christianity is not keeping pace
with the increase of population. When we take
into consideration that it is aided by the momentum
of eighteen centuries, is it not wonderful that it is not
to-day holding its own? The reason of this is, that
we are beginning to understand the Scriptures. We
are beginningto see, and to see clearly, that they are
simply of human origin, and that the Bible bears
the marks of the barbarians who wrote it. The best
educated among the clergy admit that we know but
little as to the origin of the gospels; that we do not
positively know the author of one of them; that it is
really a matter of doubt as to who wrote the five
books attributed to Moses. They admit now, that
Isaiah was written by more than one person; that
Solomon's Song was not written by that king; that
Job is, in all probability, not a Jewish book; that
Ecclesiastes must have been written by a Freethinker,
and by one who had his doubts about the immortality
of the soul. The best biblical students of the so-
called orthodox world now admit that several stories
were united to make the gospel of Saint Luke; that
Hebrews is a selection from many fragments, and

144

that no human being, not afflicted with delirium

tremens, can understand the book of Revelation.

I am not the only one engaged in the work of
destruction. Every Protestant who expresses a doubt
as to the genuineness of a passage, is destroying the
Bible. The gentlemen who have endeavored to treat
hell as a question of syntax, and to prove that eternal
punishment depends upon grammar, are helping to
bring the Scriptures into contempt. Hundreds of
years ago, the Catholics told the Protestant world that
it was dangerous to give the Bible to the people.
The Catholics were right; the Protestants were
wrong. To read is to think. To think is to investi-
gate. To investigate is, finally, to deny. That book
should have been read only by priests. Every copy
should have been under the lock and key of bishop,
cardinal and pope. The common people should have
received the Bible from the lips of the ministers.
The world should have been kept in ignorance. In
that way, and in that way only, could the pulpit have
maintained its power. He who teaches a child
the alphabet sows the seeds of heresy. I have lived
to see the schoolhouse in many a village larger than
the church. Every man who finds a fact, is the
enemy of theology. Every man who expresses an

145

honest thought is a soldier in the army of intellectual
liberty.

Question. Mr. Talmage thinks that you laugh too
much,—that you exhibit too much mirth, and that no
one should smile at sacred things?

Answer. The church has always feared ridicule.
The minister despises laughter. He who builds upon
ignorance and awe, fears intelligence and mirth. The
theologians always begin by saying: "Let us be
"solemn." They know that credulity and awe are
twins. They also know that while Reason is the
pilot of the soul, Humor carries the lamp. Whoever
has the sense of humor fully developed, cannot, by
any possibility, be an orthodox theologian. He would
be his own laughing stock. The most absurd stories,
the most laughable miracles, read in a solemn, stately
way, sound to the ears of ignorance and awe like
truth. It has been the object of the church for
eighteen hundred years to prevent laughter.

A smile is the dawn of a doubt.

Ministers are always talking about death, and
coffins, and dust, and worms,—the cross in this life,
and the fires of another. They have been the
enemies of human happiness. They hate to hear

146

even the laughter of children. There seems to have
been a bond of sympathy between divinity and
dyspepsia, between theology and indigestion. There
is a certain pious hatred of pleasure, and those who
have been "born again" are expected to despise
"the transitory joys of this fleeting life." In this,
they follow the example of their prophets, of whom
they proudly say: "They never smiled."

Whoever laughs at a holy falsehood, is called a
"scoffer." Whoever gives vent to his natural feel-
ings is regarded as a "blasphemer," and whoever
examines the Bible as he examines other books, and
relies upon his reason to interpret it, is denounced
as a "reprobate."

Let us respect the truth, let us laugh at miracles,
and above all, let us be candid with each other.

'Question. Mr. Talmage charges that you have, in
your lectures, satirized your early home; that you
have described with bitterness the Sundays that were
forced upon you in your youth; and that in various
ways you have denounced your father as a "tyrant,"
or a "bigot," or a "fool"?

Answer. I have described the manner in which
Sunday was kept when I was a boy. My father for

147

many years regarded the Sabbath as a sacred day.
We kept Sunday as most other Christians did. I think
that my father made a mistake about that day. I
have no doubt he was honest about it, and really
believed that it was pleasing to God for him to keep
the Sabbath as he did.

I think that Sunday should not be a day of gloom,
of silence and despair, or a day in which to hear that
the chances are largely in favor of your being eternally
damned. That day, in my opinion, should be one of
joy; a day to get acquainted with your wife and
children; a day to visit the woods, or the sea, or the
murmuring stream; a day to gather flowers, to visit
the graves of your dead, to read old poems, old
letters, old books; a day to rekindle the fires of
friendship and love.

Mr. Talmage says that my father was a Christian,
and he then proceeds to malign his memory. It
seems to me that a living Christian should at least
tell the truth about one who sleeps the silent sleep
of death.

I have said nothing, in any of my lectures, about
my father, or about my mother, or about any of my
relatives. I have not the egotism to bring them
forward. They have nothing to do with the subject

148

in hand. That my father was mistaken upon the
subject of religion, I have no doubt. He was a good,
a brave and honest man. I loved him living, and
I love him dead. I never said to him an unkind
word, and in my heart there never was of him an
unkind thought. He was grand enough to say to
me, that I had the same right to my opinion that he
had to his. He was great enough to tell me to read
the Bible for myself, to be honest with myself, and if
after reading it I concluded it was not the word of
God, that it was my duty to say so.

My mother died when I was but a child; and from
that day—the darkest of my life—her memory has
been within my heart a sacred thing, and I have felt,
through all these years, her kisses on my lips.

I know that my parents—if they are conscious now
—do not wish me to honor them at the expense of
my manhood. I know that neither my father nor my
mother would have me sacrifice upon their graves my
honest thought. I know that I can only please them by
being true to myself, by defending what I believe is
good, by attacking what I believe is bad. Yet this min-
ister of Christ is cruel enough, and malicious enough,
to attack the reputation of the dead. What he says
about my father is utterly and unqualifiedly false.

149

Right here, it may be well enough for me to say,
that long before my father died, he threw aside, as
unworthy of a place in the mind of an intelligent
man, the infamous dogma of eternal fire; that he
regarded with abhorrence many passages in the Old
Testament; that he believed man, in another world,
would have the eternal opportunity of doing right,
and that the pity of God would last as long as the
suffering of man. My father and my mother were
good, in spite of the Old Testament. They were mer-
ciful, in spite of the one frightful doctrine in the New.
They did not need the religion of Presbyterianism.
Presbyterianism never made a human being better.
If there is anything that will freeze the generous
current of the soul, it is Calvinism. If there is any
creed that will destroy charity, that will keep the
tears of pity from the cheeks of men and women, it
is Presbyterianism. If there is any doctrine calcu-
lated to make man bigoted, unsympathetic, and
cruel, it is the doctrine of predestination. Neither
my father, nor my mother, believed in the damnation
of babes, nor in the inspiration of John Calvin.

Mr. Talmage professes to be a Christian. What
effect has the religion of Jesus Christ had upon him?
Is he the product—the natural product—of Chris-

150

tianity? Does the real Christian violate the sanctity
of death? Does the real Christian malign the
memory of the dead? Does the good Christian
defame unanswering and unresisting dust?

But why should I expect kindness from a Chris-
tian? Can a minister be expected to treat with
fairness a man whom his God intends to damn? If
a good God is going to burn an infidel forever, in
the world to come, surely a Christian should have
the right to persecute him a little here.

What right has a Christian to ask anybody to love
his father, or mother, or wife, or child? According
to the gospels, Christ offered a reward to any one
who would desert his father or his mother. He
offered a premium to gentlemen for leaving their
wives, and tried to bribe people to abandon their
little children. He offered them happiness in this
world, and a hundred fold in the next, if they would
turn a deaf ear to the supplications of a father, the
beseeching cry of a wife, and would leave the out-
stretched arms of babes. They were not even
allowed to bury their fathers and their mothers. At
that time they were expected to prefer Jesus to their
wives and children. And now an orthodox minister
says that a man ought not to express his honest

151

thoughts, because they do not happen to be in accord
with the belief of his father or mother.

Suppose Mr. Talmage should read the Bible care-
fully and without fear, and should come to the honest
conclusion that it is not inspired, what course would
he pursue for the purpose of honoring his parents?
Would he say, "I cannot tell the truth, I must lie,
"for the purpose of shedding a halo of glory around
"the memory of my mother"? Would he say: "Of
"course, my father and mother would a thousand
"times rather have their son a hypocritical Christian
"than an honest, manly unbeliever"? This might
please Mr. Talmage, and accord perfectly with his
view, but I prefer to say, that my father wished me to
be an honest man. If he is in "heaven" now, I am
sure that he would rather hear me attack the
"inspired" word of God, honestly and bravely, than
to hear me, in the solemn accents of hypocrisy, defend
what I believe to be untrue.

I may be mistaken in the estimate angels put upon
human beings. It may be that God likes a pretended
follower better than an honest, outspoken man—one
who is an infidel simply because he does not under-
stand this God. But it seems to me, in my unregenerate
condition, touched and tainted as I am by original sin,

152

that a God of infinite power and wisdom ought to be
able to make a man brave enough to have an opinion
of his own. I cannot conceive of God taking any
particular pride in any hypocrite he has ever made.
Whatever he may say through his ministers, or
whatever the angels may repeat, a manly devil
stands higher in my estimation than an unmanly
angel. I do not mean by this, that there are any
unmanly angels, neither do I pretend that there
are any manly devils. My meaning is this: If I have
a Creator, I can only honor him by being true to
myself, and kind and just to my fellow-men. If I wish
to shed lustre upon my father and mother, I can
only do so by being absolutely true to myself.
Never will I lay the wreath of hypocrisy upon the
tombs of those I love.

Mr. Talmage takes the ground that we must defend
the religious belief of our parents. He seems to
forget that all parents do not believe exactly alike,
and that everybody has at least two parents. Now,
suppose that the father is an infidel, and the mother
a Christian, what must the son do? Must he "drive
"the ploughshare of contempt through the grave of
"the father," for the purpose of honoring the mother;
or must he drive the ploughshare through the grave

153

of the mother to honor the father; or must he com-
promise, and talk one way and believe another? If
Mr. Talmage's doctrine is correct, only persons who
have no knowledge of their parents can have liberty
of opinion. Foundlings would be the only free
people. I do not suppose that Mr. Talmage would
go so far as to say that a child would be bound by
the religion of the person upon whose door-steps he
was found. If he does not, then over every foundling
hospital should be these words: "Home of Intel-
"lectual Liberty."

Question. Do you suppose that we will care
nothing in the next world for those we loved in this?
Is it worse in a man than in an angel, to care nothing
for his mother?

Answer. According to Mr. Talmage, a man can
be perfectly happy in heaven, with his mother in hell.
He will be so entranced with the society of Christ,
that he will not even inquire what has become of his
wife. The Holy Ghost will keep him in such a state
of happy wonder, of ecstatic joy, that the names,
even, of his children will never invade his memory.
It may be that I am lacking in filial affection, but
I would much rather be in hell, with my parents

154

in heaven, than be in heaven with my parents in hell.
I think a thousand times more of my parents than I
do of Christ. They knew me, they worked for me,
they loved me, and I can imagine no heaven, no
state of perfect bliss for me, in which they have no
share. If God hates me, because I love them,
I cannot love him.

I cannot truthfully say that I look forward with any
great degree of joy, to meeting with Haggai and
Habakkuk; with Jeremiah, Nehemiah, Obadiah,
Zechariah or Zephaniah; with Ezekiel, Micah, or
Malachi; or even with Jonah. From what little
I have read of their writings, I have not formed a
very high opinion of the social qualities of these
gentlemen.

I want to meet the persons I have known; and if
there is another life, I want to meet the really and
the truly great—men who have been broad enough to
be tender, and great enough to be kind.

Because I differ with my parents, because I am
convinced that my father was wrong in some of
his religious opinions, Mr. Talmage insists that I dis-
grace my parents. How did the Christian religion
commence? Did not the first disciples advocate
theories that their parents denied? Were they

155

not false,—in his sense of the word,—to their
fathers and mothers? How could there have been
any progress in this world, if children had not
gone beyond their parents? Do you consider that
the inventor of a steel plow cast a slur upon his
father who scratched the ground with a wooden
one? I do not consider that an invention by the
son is a slander upon the father; I regard each
invention simply as an improvement; and every
father should be exceedingly proud of an ingenious
son. If Mr. Talmage has a son, it will be impossible
for him to honor his father except by differing with
him.

It is very strange that Mr. Talmage, a believer in
Christ, should object to any man for not loving his
mother and his father, when his Master, according
to the gospel of Saint Luke, says: "If any man
"come to me, and hate not his father, and mother,
"and wife, and children, and brethren, and sis-
"ters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my
"disciple."

According to this, I have to make my choice be-
tween my wife, my children, and Jesus Christ. I have
concluded to stand by my folks—both in this world,
and in "the world to come."

156

Question. Mr. Talmage asks you whether, in your
judgment, the Bible was a good, or an evil, to your
parents?

Answer. I think it was an evil. The worst thing
about my father was his religion. He would have
been far happier, in my judgment, without it. I
think I get more real joy out of life than he did.
He was a man of a very great and tender heart. He
was continually thinking—for many years of his
life—of the thousands and thousands going down to
eternal fire. That doctrine filled his days with
gloom, and his eyes with tears. I think that my
father and mother would have been far happier had
they believed as I do. How any one can get any
joy out of the Christian religion is past my compre-
hension. If that religion is true, hundreds of mil-
lions are now in hell, and thousands of millions yet
unborn will be. How such a fact can form any part
of the "glad tidings of great joy," is amazing to me.
It is impossible for me to love a being who would
create countless millions for eternal pain. It is
impossible for me to worship the God of the Bible,
or the God of Calvin, or the God of the Westminster
Catechism.

157

Question. I see that Mr. Talmage challenges you
to read the fourteenth chapter of Saint John. Are
you willing to accept the challenge; or have you
ever read that chapter?

Answer. I do not claim to be very courageous,
but I have read that chapter, and am very glad that
Mr. Talmage has called attention to it. According
to the gospels, Christ did many miracles. He healed
the sick, gave sight to the blind, made the lame
walk, and raised the dead. In the fourteenth chapter
of Saint John, twelfth verse, I find the following:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you: He that believeth
"on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and
"greater works than these shall he do, because I go
"unto my Father."

I am willing to accept that as a true test of a
believer. If Mr. Talmage really believes in Jesus
Christ, he ought to be able to do at least as great
miracles as Christ is said to have done. Will Mr.
Talmage have the kindness to read the fourteenth
chapter of John, and then give me some proof, in
accordance with that chapter, that he is a believer in
Jesus Christ? Will he have the kindness to perform
a miracle?—for instance, produce a "local flood,"
make a worm to smite a gourd, or "prepare a fish"?

158

Can he do anything of that nature? Can he even
cause a "vehement east wind"? What evidence,
according to the Bible, can Mr. Talmage give of his
belief? How does he prove that he is a Christian?
By hating infidels and maligning Christians? Let
Mr. Talmage furnish the evidence, according to the
fourteenth chapter of Saint John, or forever after
hold his peace.

He has my thanks for calling my attention to the
fourteenth chapter of Saint John.

Question. Mr. Talmage charges that you are at-
tempting to destroy the "chief solace of the world,"
without offering any substitute. How do you answer
this?

Answer. If he calls Christianity the "chief solace
"of the world," and if by Christianity he means that all
who do not believe in the inspiration of the Scrip-
tures, and have no faith in Jesus Christ, are to be
eternally damned, then I admit that I am doing the
best I can to take that "solace" from the human
heart. I do not believe that the Bible, when prop-
erly understood, is, or ever has been, a comfort to
any human being. Surely, no good man can be
comforted by reading a book in which he finds that

159

a large majority of mankind have been sentenced to
eternal fire. In the doctrine of total depravity there
is no "solace." In the doctrine of "election" there can
be no joy until the returns are in, and a majority
found for you.

Question. Mr. Talmage says that you are taking
away the world's medicines, and in place of anaes-
thetics, in place of laudanum drops, you read an
essay to the man in pain, on the absurdities of mor-
phine and nervines in general.

Answer. It is exactly the other way. I say, let
us depend upon morphine, not upon prayer. Do
not send for the minister—take a little laudanum.
Do not read your Bible,—chloroform is better. Do
not waste your time listening to meaningless ser-
mons, but take real, genuine soporifics.

I regard the discoverer of ether as a benefactor.
I look upon every great surgeon as a blessing to
mankind. I regard one doctor, skilled in his profes-
sion, of more importance to the world than all the
orthodox ministers.

Mr. Talmage should remember that for hundreds
of years, the church fought, with all its power, the
science of medicine. Priests used to cure diseases

160

by selling little pieces of paper covered with cabalistic
marks. They filled their treasuries by the sale of
holy water. They healed the sick by relics—the teeth
and ribs of saints, the finger-nails of departed wor-
thies, and the hair of glorified virgins. Infidelity
said: "Send for the doctor." Theology said: "Stick
"to the priest." Infidelity,—that is to say, science,—
said: "Vaccinate him." The priest said: "Pray;—
"I will sell you a charm." The doctor was regarded
as a man who was endeavoring to take from God his
means of punishment. He was supposed to spike
the artillery of Jehovah, to wet the powder of the
Almighty, and to steal the flint from the musket of
heavenly retribution.

Infidelity has never relied upon essays, it has
never relied upon words, it has never relied upon
prayers, it has never relied upon angels or gods; it
has relied upon the honest efforts of men and women.
It has relied upon investigation, observation, experi-
ence, and above all, upon human reason.

We, in America, know how much prayers are
worth. We have lately seen millions of people upon
their knees. What was the result?

In the olden times, when a plague made its ap-
pearance, the people fell upon their knees and died.

161

When pestilence came, they rushed to their ca-
thedrals, they implored their priests—and died. God
had no pity upon his ignorant children. At last,
Science came to the rescue. Science,—not in the
attitude of prayer, with closed eyes, but in the atti-
tude of investigation, with open eyes,—looked for and
discovered some of the laws of health. Science
found that cleanliness was far better than godliness. It
said: Do not spend your time in praying;—clean your
houses, clean your streets, clean yourselves. This pest-
ilence is not a punishment. Health is not simply a favor
of the gods. Health depends upon conditions, and
when the conditions are violated, disease is inevitable,
and no God can save you. Health depends upon
your surroundings, and when these are favorable,
the roses are in your cheeks.

We find in the Old Testament that God gave
to Moses a thousand directions for ascertaining
the presence of leprosy. Yet it never occurred
to this God to tell Moses how to cure the disease.
Within the lids of the Old Testament, we have no
information upon a subject of such vital importance
to mankind.

It may, however, be claimed by Mr. Talmage, that
this statement is a little too broad, and I will therefore

162

give one recipe that I find in the fourteenth chapter
of Leviticus:

"Then shall the priest command to take for him
" that is to be cleansed two birds alive and clean, and
"cedar wood, and scarlet, and hyssop; and the priest
"shall command that one of the birds be killed in an
"earthen vessel over running water. As for the
"living bird, he shall take it, and the cedar wood,
"and the scarlet, and the hyssop, and shall dip them
"and the living bird in the blood of the bird that was
"killed over the running water. And he shall
"sprinkle upon him that is to be cleansed from the
"leprosy seven times, and shall pronounce him clean,
"and shall let the living bird loose into the open
"field."

Prophets were predicting evil—filling the country
with their wails and cries, and yet it never occurred
to them to tell one solitary thing of the slightest
importance to mankind. Why did not these inspired
men tell us how to cure some of the diseases that
have decimated the world? Instead of spending
forty days and forty nights with Moses, telling him
how to build a large tent, and how to cut the gar-
ments of priests, why did God not give him a little
useful information in respect to the laws of health?

163

Mr. Talmage must remember that the church has
invented no anodynes, no anaesthetics, no medicines,
and has affected no cures. The doctors have not
been inspired. All these useful things men have
discovered for themselves, aided by no prophet and
by no divine Savior. Just to the extent that man
has depended upon the other world, he has failed to
make the best of this. Just in the proportion that he
has depended on his own efforts, he has advanced.
The church has always said:

"Consider the lilies of the field; they toil not,
"neither do they spin." "Take no thought for the
"morrow." Whereas, the real common sense of this
world has said: "No matter whether lilies toil and
spin, or not, if you would succeed, you must work;
you must take thought for the morrow, you must
look beyond the present day, you must provide for
your wife and your children."

What can I be expected to give as a substitute for
perdition? It is enough to show that it does not
exist. What does a man want in place of a disease?
Health. And what is better calculated to increase
the happiness of mankind than to know that the
doctrine of eternal pain is infinitely and absurdly
false?

164

Take theology from the world, and natural Love
remains, Science is still here, Music will not be lost,
the page of History will still be open, the walls of
the world will still be adorned with Art, and the
niches rich with Sculpture.

Take theology from the world, and we all shall
have a common hope,—and the fear of hell will be
removed from every human heart.

Take theology from the world, and millions of
men will be compelled to earn an honest living.
Impudence will not tax credulity. The vampire of
hypocrisy will not suck the blood of honest toil.

Take theology from the world, and the churches
can be schools, and the cathedrals universities.

Take theology from the world, and the money
wasted on superstition will do away with want.

Take theology from the world, and every brain
will find itself without a chain.

There is a vast difference between what is called
infidelity and theology.

Infidelity is honest. When it reaches the confines
of reason, it says: "I know no further."

Infidelity does not palm its guess upon an ignorant
world as a demonstration.

165

Infidelity proves nothing by slander—establishes
nothing by abuse.

Infidelity has nothing to hide. It has no "holy
"of holies," except the abode of truth. It has no
curtain that the hand of investigation has not the
right to draw aside. It lives in the cloudless light,
in the very noon, of human eyes.

Infidelity has no bible to be blasphemed. It does
not cringe before an angry God.

Infidelity says to every man: Investigate for
yourself. There is no punishment for unbelief.

Infidelity asks no protection from legislatures. It
wants no man fined because he contradicts its doc-
trines.

Infidelity relies simply upon evidence—not evi-
dence of the dead, but of the living.

Infidelity has no infallible pope. It relies only
upon infallible fact. It has no priest except the
interpreter of Nature. The universe is its church.
Its bible is everything that is true. It implores every
man to verify every word for himself, and it implores
him to say, if he does not believe it, that he does
not.

Infidelity does not fear contradiction. It is not
afraid of being laughed at. It invites the scrutiny

166

of all doubters, of all unbelievers. It does not rely
upon awe, but upon reason. It says to the whole
world: It is dangerous not to think. It is dan-
gerous not to be honest. It is dangerous not to
investigate. It is dangerous not to follow where
your reason leads.

Infidelity requires every man to judge for himself.
Infidelity preserves the manhood of man.

Question. Mr. Talmage also says that you are
trying to put out the light-houses on the coast of the
next world; that you are "about to leave everybody
"in darkness at the narrows of death"?

Answer. There can be no necessity for these
light-houses, unless the God of Mr. Talmage has
planted rocks and reefs within that unknown sea.
If there is no hell, there is no need of any light-
house on the shores of the next world; and only
those are interested in keeping up these pretended
light-houses who are paid for trimming invisible
wicks and supplying the lamps with allegorical oil.
Mr. Talmage is one of these light-house keepers,
and he knows that if it is ascertained that the coast
is not dangerous, the light-house will be abandoned,
and the keeper will have to find employment else-

167

where. As a matter of fact, every church is a use-
less light-house. It warns us only against breakers
that do not exist. Whenever a mariner tells one of
the keepers that there is no danger, then all the
keepers combine to destroy the reputation of that
mariner.

No one has returned from the other world to tell
us whether they have light-houses on that shore or
not; or whether the light-houses on this shore—one
of which Mr. Talmage is tending—have ever sent a
cheering ray across the sea.

Nature has furnished every human being with
a light more or less brilliant, more or less powerful.
That light is Reason; and he who blows that light
out, is in utter darkness. It has been the business of
the church for centuries to extinguish the lamp of the
mind, and to convince the people that their own
reason is utterly unreliable. The church has asked
all men to rely only upon the light of the church.

Every priest has been not only a light-house but
a guide-board. He has threatened eternal damna-
tion to all who travel on some other road. These
guide-boards have been toll-gates, and the principal
reason why the churches have wanted people to go
their road is, that tolls might be collected. They

168

have regarded unbelievers as the owners of turnpikes
do people who go 'cross lots. The toll-gate man
always tells you that other roads are dangerous—
filled with quagmires and quicksands.

Every church is a kind of insurance society, and
proposes, for a small premium, to keep you from
eternal fire. Of course, the man who tells you that
there is to be no fire, interferes with the business,
and is denounced as a malicious meddler and blas-
phemer. The fires of this world sustain the same
relation to insurance companies that the fires of the
next do to the churches.

Mr. Talmage also insists that I am breaking up the
"life-boats." Why should a ship built by infinite
wisdom, by an infinite shipbuilder, carry life-boats?
The reason we have life-boats now is, that we are
not entirely sure of the ship. We know that man
has not yet found out how to make a ship that can
certainly brave all the dangers of the deep. For this
reason we carry life-boats. But infinite wisdom must
surely build ships that do not need life-boats. Is there
to be a wreck at last? Is God's ship to go down in
storm and darkness? Will it be necessary at last to
forsake his ship and depend upon life-boats?

For my part, I do not wish to be rescued by a life-

169

boat. When the ship, bearing the whole world, goes
down, I am willing to go down with it—with my
wife, with my children, and with those I have loved.
I will not slip ashore in an orthodox canoe with
somebody else's folks,—I will stay with my own.

What a picture is presented by the church! A few
in life's last storm are to be saved; and the saved,
when they reach shore, are to look back with joy
upon the great ship going down to the eternal depths!
This is what I call the unutterable meanness of or-
thodox Christianity.

Mr. Talmage speaks of the "meanness of in-
"fidelity."

The meanness of orthodox Christianity permits the
husband to be saved, and to be ineffably happy, while
the wife of his bosom is suffering the tortures of hell.

The meanness of orthodox Christianity tells the
boy that he can go to heaven and have an eternity
of bliss, and that this bliss will not even be clouded
by the fact that the mother who bore him writhes in
eternal pain.

The meanness of orthodox Christianity allows
a soul to be so captivated with the companionship
of angels as to forget all the old loves and friend-
ships of this world.

170

The meanness of orthodox Christianity, its un-
speakable selfishness, allows a soul in heaven to exult
in the fact of its own salvation, and at the same time
to care nothing for the damnation of all the rest.

The orthodox Christian says that if he can only

save his little soul, if he can barely squeeze into
heaven, if he can only get past Saint Peter's gate,
if he can by hook or crook climb up the opposite
bank of Jordan, if he can get a harp in his hand, it
matters not to him what becomes of brother or
sister, father or mother, wife or child. He is willing
that they should burn if he can sing.

Oh, the unutterable meanness of orthodox Chris-
tianity, the infinite heartlessness of the orthodox
angels, who with tearless eyes will forever gaze upon
the agonies of those who were once blood of their
blood and flesh of their flesh!

Mr. Talmage describes a picture of the scourging
of Christ, painted by Rubens, and he tells us that
he was so appalled by this picture—by the sight of
the naked back, swollen and bleeding—that he could
not have lived had he continued to look; yet this
same man, who could not bear to gaze upon a
painted pain, expects to be perfectly happy in heaven,
while countiess billions of actual—not painted—men,

171

women, and children writhe—not in a pictured flame,
but in the real and quenchless fires of hell.

Question. Mr. Talmage also claims that we are
indebted to Christianity for schools, colleges, univer-
sities, hospitals and asylums?

Answer. This shows that Mr. Talmage has not
read the history of the world. Long before Chris-
tianity had a place, there were vast libraries. There
were thousands of schools before a Christian existed
on the earth. There were hundreds of hospitals
before a line of the New Testament was written.
Hundreds of years before Christ, there were hospitals
in India,—not only for men, women and children, but
even for beasts. There were hospitals in Egypt long
before Moses was born. They knew enough then
to cure insanity with music. They surrounded the
insane with flowers, and treated them with kindness.

The great libraries at Alexandria were not Chris-
tian. The most intellectual nation of the Middle
Ages was not Christian. While Christians were
imprisoning people for saying that the earth is round,
the Moors in Spain were teaching geography with
globes. They had even calculated the circumference
of the earth by the tides of the Red Sea.

Where did education come from? For a thousand

172

years Christianity destroyed books and paintings and
statues. For a thousand years Christianity was filled
with hatred toward every effort of the human mind.
We got paper from the Moors. Printing had been
known thousands of years before, in China. A few
manuscripts, containing a portion of the literature of
Greece, a few enriched with the best thoughts of
the Roman world, had been preserved from the
general wreck and ruin wrought by Christian hate.
These became the seeds of intellectual progress.
For a thousand years Christianity controlled Europe.
The Mohammedans were far in advance of the
Christians with hospitals and asylums and institutions
of learning.

Just in proportion that we have done away with
what is known as orthodox Christianity, humanity
has taken its place. Humanity has built all the asy-
lums, all the hospitals. Humanity, not Christianity,
has done these things. The people of this country
are all willing to be taxed that the insane may be
cared for, that the sick, the helpless, and the desti-
tute may be provided for, not because they are
Christians, but because they are humane; and they
are not humane because they are Christians.

The colleges of this country have been poisoned by

173

theology, and their usefulness almost destroyed. Just
in proportion that they have gotten from ecclesiastical
control, they have become a good. That college, to-
day, which has the most religion has the least true
learning; and that college which is the nearest free,
does the most good. Colleges that pit Moses against
modern geology, that undertake to overthrow the
Copernican system by appealing to Joshua, have
done, and are doing, very little good in this world.

Suppose that in the first century Pagans had said
to Christians: Where are your hospitals, where are
your asylums, where are your works of charity, where
are your colleges and universities?

The Christians undoubtedly would have replied:
We have not been in power. There are but few
of us. We have been persecuted to that degree
that it has been about as much as we could do to
maintain ourselves.

Reasonable Pagans would have regarded such an
answer as perfectly satisfactory. Yet that question
could have been asked of Christianity after it had
held the reins of power for a thousand years, and
Christians would have been compelled to say: We
have no universities, we have no colleges, we have
no real asylums.

174

The Christian now asks of the atheist: Where
is your asylum, where is your hospital, where is your
university? And the atheist answers: There have
been but few atheists. The world is not yet suffi-
ciently advanced to produce them. For hundreds
and hundreds of years, the minds of men have been
darkened by the superstitions of Christianity. Priests
have thundered against human knowledge, have de-
nounced human reason, and have done all within
their power to prevent the real progress of mankind.

You must also remember that Christianity has
made more lunatics than it ever provided asylums
for. Christianity has driven more men and women
crazy than all other religions combined. Hundreds
and thousands and millions have lost their reason in
contemplating the monstrous falsehoods of Chris-
tianity. Thousands of mothers, thinking of their
sons in hell—thousands of fathers, believing their
boys and girls in perdition, have lost their reason.

So, let it be distinctly understood, that Christianity
has made ten lunatics—twenty—one hundred—
where it has provided an asylum for one.

Mr. Talmage also speaks of the hospitals. When
we take into consideration the wars that have been
waged on account of religion, the countless thou-

175

sands who have been maimed and wounded, through
all the years, by wars produced by theology—then I
say that Christianity has not built hospitals enough
to take care of her own wounded—not enough to
take care of one in a hundred. Where Christianity
has bound up the wounds of one, it has pierced the
bodies of a hundred others with sword and spear,
with bayonet and ball. Where she has provided
one bed in a hospital, she has laid away a hundred
bodies in bloody graves.

Of course I do not expect the church to do
anything but beg. Churches produce nothing. They
are like the lilies of the field. "They toil not, neither
"do they spin, yet Solomon in all his glory was not
"arrayed like most of them."

The churches raise no corn nor wheat. They
simply collect tithes. They carry the alms' dish.
They pass the plate. They take toll. Of course
a mendicant is not expected to produce anything.
He does not support,—he is supported. The church
does not help. She receives, she devours, she
consumes, and she produces only discord. She ex-
changes mistakes for provisions, faith for food,
prayers for pence. The church is a beggar. But we
have this consolation: In this age of the world, this

176

beggar is not on horseback, and even the walking is
not good.

Question. Mr. Talmage says that infidels have
done no good?

Answer. Well, let us see. In the first place,
what is an "infidel"? He is simply a man in advance
of his time. He is an intellectual pioneer. He is
the dawn of a new day. He is a gentleman with an
idea of his own, for which he gave no receipt to the
church. He is a man who has not been branded as
the property of some one else. An "infidel" is one
who has made a declaration of independence. In
other words, he is a man who has had a doubt. To
have a doubt means that you have thought upon
the subject—that you have investigated the question;
and he who investigates any religion will doubt.

All the advance that has been made in the religious
world has been made by "infidels," by "heretics,"
by "skeptics," by doubters,—that is to say, by
thoughtful men. The doubt does not come from the
ignorant members of your congregations. Heresy is
not born of stupidity,—it is not the child of the brain-
less. He who is so afraid of hurting the reputation
of his father and mother that he refuses to advance,

177

is not a "heretic." The "heretic" is not true to
falsehood. Orthodoxy is. He who stands faithfully
by a mistake is "orthodox." He who, discovering
that it is a mistake, has the courage to say so, is an
"infidel."

An infidel is an intellectual discoverer—one who
finds new isles, new continents, in the vast realm of
thought. The dwellers on the orthodox shore de-
nounce this brave sailor of the seas as a buccaneer.

And yet we are told that the thinkers of new
thoughts have never been of value to the world.
Voltaire did more for human liberty than all the
orthodox ministers living and dead. He broke a
thousand times more chains than Luther. Luther
simply substituted his chain for that of the Catholics.
Voltaire had none. The Encyclopaedists of France
did more for liberty than all the writers upon theology.
Bruno did more for mankind than millions of "be-
"lievers." Spinoza contributed more to the growth
of the human intellect than all the orthodox theolo-
gians.

Men have not done good simply because they have
believed this or that doctrine. They have done good
in the intellectual world as they have thought and
secured for others the liberty to think and to ex-

178

press their thoughts. They have done good in the
physical world by teaching their fellows how to
triumph over the obstructions of nature. Every
man who has taught his fellow-man to think, has
been a benefactor. Every one who has supplied his
fellow-men with facts, and insisted upon their right
to think, has been a blessing to his kind.

Mr. Talmage, in order to show what Christians
have done, points us to Whitefield, Luther, Oberlin,
Judson, Martyn, Bishop Mcllvaine and Hannah
More. I would not for one moment compare George
Whitefield with the inventor of movable type, and
there is no parallel between Frederick Oberlin and
the inventor of paper; not the slightest between
Martin Luther and the discoverer of the New World;
not the least between Adoniram Judson and the in-
ventor of the reaper, nor between Henry Martyn
and the discoverer of photography. Of what use to
the world was Bishop Mcllvaine, compared with
the inventor of needles? Of what use were a
hundred such priests compared with the inventor
of matches, or even of clothes-pins? Suppose that
Hannah More had never lived? about the same
number would read her writings now. It is hardly fair
to compare her with the inventor of the steamship?

179

The progress of the world—its present improved
condition—can be accounted for only by the discov-
eries of genius, only by men who have had the
courage to express their honest thoughts.

After all, the man who invented the telescope
found out more about heaven than the closed eyes of
prayer had ever discovered. I feel absolutely certain
that the inventor of the steam engine was a greater
benefactor to mankind than the writer of the Presby-
terian creed. I may be mistaken, but I think that
railways have done more to civilize mankind, than any
system of theology. I believe that the printing press
has done more for the world than the pulpit. It is
my opinion that the discoveries of Kepler did a
thousand times more to enlarge the minds of men
than the prophecies of Daniel. I feel under far
greater obligation to Humboldt than to Haggai.
The inventor of the plow did more good than the
maker of the first rosary—because, say what you
will, plowing is better than praying; we can live by
plowing without praying, but we can not live by
praying without plowing. So I put my faith in the
plow.

As Jehovah has ceased to make garments for his
children,—as he has stopped making coats of skins,

180

I have great respect for the inventors of the spinning-
jenny and the sewing machine. As no more laws
are given from Sinai, I have admiration for the real
statesmen. As miracles have ceased, I rely on
medicine, and on a reasonable compliance with the
conditions of health.

I have infinite respect for the inventors, the
thinkers, the discoverers, and above all, for the un-
known millions who have, without the hope of fame,
lived and labored for the ones they loved.

FIFTH INTERVIEW.

Parson. You had belter join the church; it is
the safer way.

Sinner. I can't live up to your doctrines, and you
know it.

Parson. Well, you can come as near it in the
church as out; and forgiveness

will be easier if you join us.

Sinner. What do you mean by that?

Parson. I will tell you. If you join the church,
and happen to back-slide now and then, Christ will
say to his Father: "That man is a "friend of mine,
and you may charge his account to me."

Question. What have you to say about the
fifth sermon of the Rev. Mr. Talmage in reply
to you?

Answer. The text from which he preached is:
"Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?"
I am compelled to answer these questions in the
negative. That is one reason why I am an infidel.
I do not believe that anybody can gather grapes of
thorns, or figs of thistles. That is exactly my doctrine.
But the doctrine of the church is, that you can. The

184

church says, that just at the last, no matter if you
have spent your whole life in raising thorns and thistles,
in planting and watering and hoeing and plowing
thorns and thistles—that just at the last, if you will
repent, between hoeing the last thistle and taking the
last breath, you can reach out the white and palsied
hand of death and gather from every thorn a cluster
of grapes and from every thistle an abundance of
figs. The church insists that in this way you can
gather enough grapes and figs to last you through all
eternity.

My doctrine is, that he who raises thorns must
harvest thorns. If you sow thorns, you must reap
thorns; and there is no way by which an innocent
being can have the thorns you raise thrust into his
brow, while you gather his grapes.

But Christianity goes even further than this. It
insists that a man can plant grapes and gather thorns.
Mr. Talmage insists that, no matter how good you
are, no matter how kind, no matter how much you
love your wife and children, no matter how many
self-denying acts you do, you will not be allowed to
eat of the grapes you raise; that God will step be-
tween you and the natural consequences of your
goodness, and not allow you to reap what you sow.

185

Mr. Talmage insists, that if you have no faith in the
Lord Jesus Christ, although you have been good
here, you will reap eternal pain as your harvest; that
the effect of honesty and kindness will not be peace
and joy, but agony and pain. So that the church
does insist not only that you can gather grapes from
thorns, but thorns from grapes.

I believe exactly the other way. If a man is a
good man here, dying will not change him, and he
will land on the shore of another world—if there is
one—the same good man that he was when he left
this; and I do not believe there is any God in this
universe who can afford to damn a good man. This
God will say to this man: You loved your wife,
your children, and your friends, and I love you.
You treated others with kindness; I will treat you
in the same way. But Mr. Talmage steps up to
his God, nudges his elbow, and says: Although he
was a very good man, he belonged to no church;
he was a blasphemer; he denied the whale story, and
after I explained that Jonah was only in the whale's
mouth, he still denied it; and thereupon Mr. Tal-
mage expects that his infinite God will fly in a
passion, and in a perfect rage will say: What! did
he deny that story? Let him be eternally damned!

186

Not only this, but Mr. Talmage insists that a man
may have treated his wife like a wild beast; may have
trampled his child beneath the feet of his rage; may
have lived a life of dishonesty, of infamy, and yet,
having repented on his dying bed, having made his
peace with God through the intercession of his Son,
he will be welcomed in heaven with shouts of joy.
I deny it. I do not believe that angels can be so
quickly made from rascals. I have but little confi-
dence in repentance without restitution, and a hus-
band who has driven a wife to insanity and death by
his cruelty—afterward repenting and finding himself
in heaven, and missing his wife,—were he worthy to
be an angel, would wander through all the gulfs of
hell until he clasped her once again..

Now, the next question is, What must be done with
those who are sometimes good and sometimes bad?
That is my condition. If there is another world, I
expect to have the same opportunity of behaving
myself that I have here. If, when I get there, I fail
to act as I should, I expect to reap what I sow. If,
when I arrive at the New Jerusalem, I go into the
thorn business, I expect to harvest what I plant. If
I am wise enough to start a vineyard, I expect to
have grapes in the early fall. But if I do there as I

187

have done here—plant some grapes and some thorns,
and harvest them together—I expect to fare very
much as I have fared here. But I expect year by
year to grow wiser, to plant fewer thorns every
spring, and more grapes.

Question. Mr. Talmage charges that you have
taken the ground that the Bible is a cruel book, and
has produced cruel people?

Answer. Yes, I have taken that ground, and I
maintain it. The Bible was produced by cruel people,
and in its turn it has produced people like its authors.
The extermination of the Canaanites was cruel.
Most of the laws of Moses were bloodthirsty and
cruel. Hundreds of offences were punishable by
death, while now, in civilized countries, there are only
two crimes for which the punishment is capital. I
charge that Moses and Joshua and David and Samuel
and Solomon were cruel. I believe that to read and
believe the Old Testament naturally makes a man
careless of human life. That book has produced
hundreds of religious wars, and it has furnished the
battle-cries of bigotry for fifteen hundred years.

The Old Testament is filled with cruelty, but its
cruelty stops with this world, its malice ends with

188

death; whenever its victim has reached the grave,
revenge is satisfied. Not so with the New Testament.
It pursues its victim forever. After death, comes
hell; after the grave, the worm that never dies. So
that, as a matter of fact, the New Testament is in-
finitely more cruel than the Old.

Nothing has so tended to harden the human heart
as the doctrine of eternal punishment, and that
passage: "He that believeth and is baptized shall be
"saved, and he that believeth not shall be damned,"
has shed more blood than all the other so-called
"sacred books" of all this world.

I insist that the Bible is cruel. The Bible invented
instruments of torture. The Bible laid the foundations
of the Inquisition. The Bible furnished the fagots and
the martyrs. The Bible forged chains not only for the
hands, but for the brains of men. The Bible was at
the bottom of the massacre of St. Bartholomew.
Every man who has been persecuted for religion's
sake has been persecuted by the Bible. That sacred
book has been a beast of prey.

The truth is, Christians have been good in spite of
the Bible. The Bible has lived upon the reputations of
good men and good women,—men and women who
were good notwithstanding the brutality they found

189

upon the inspired page. Men have said: "My mother
"believed in the Bible; my mother was good; there-
"fore, the Bible is good," when probably the mother
never read a chapter in it.

The Bible produced the Church of Rome, and
Torquemada was a product of the Bible. Philip of
Spain and the Duke of Alva were produced by the
Bible. For thirty years Europe was one vast battle-
field, and the war was produced by the Bible. The re-
vocation of the Edict of Nantes was produced by the
sacred Scriptures. The instruments of torture—the
pincers, the thumb-screws, the racks, were produced
by the word of God. The Quakers of New England
were whipped and burned by the Bible—their children
were stolen by the Bible. The slave-ship had for its
sails the leaves of the Bible. Slavery was upheld in
the United States by the Bible. The Bible was the
auction-block. More than this, worse than this,
infinitely beyond the computation of imagination, the
despotisms of the old world all rested and still rest
upon the Bible. "The powers that be" were sup-
posed to have been "ordained of God;" and he who
rose against his king periled his soul.

In this connection, and in order to show the state
of society when the church had entire control of civil

190

and ecclesiastical affairs, it may be well enough to
read the following, taken from the New York Sun of
March 21, 1882. From this little extract, it will be
easy in the imagination to re-organize the government
that then existed, and to see clearly the state of so-
ciety at that time. This can be done upon the same
principle that one scale tells of the entire fish, or one
bone of the complete animal:

"From records in the State archives of Hesse-
"Darmstadt, dating back to the thirteenth century,
"it appears that the public executioner's fee for boiling
"a criminal in oil was twenty-four florins; for decapi-
"tating with the sword, fifteen florins and-a-half; for
"quartering, the same; for breaking on the wheel,
"five florins, thirty kreuzers; for tearing a man to
"pieces, eighteen florins. Ten florins per head was
"his charge for hanging, and he burned delinquents
"alive at the rate of fourteen florins apiece. For ap-
"plying the 'Spanish boot' his fee was only two
"florins. Five florins were paid to him every time he
"subjected a refractory witness to the torture of the
"rack. The same amount was his due for 'branding
"'the sign of the gallows with a red-hot iron upon
"'the back, forehead, or cheek of a thief,' as well as
"for 'cutting off the nose and ears of a slanderer or

191

"'blasphemer.' Flogging with rods was a cheap
"punishment, its remuneration being fixed at three
"florins, thirty kreuzers."

The Bible has made men cruel. It is a cruel book.
And yet, amidst its thorns, amidst its thistles, amidst
its nettles and its swords and pikes, there are some
flowers, and these I wish, in common with all good
men, to save.

I do not believe that men have ever been made
merciful in war by reading the Old Testament. I do
not believe that men have ever been prompted to
break the chain of a slave by reading the Pentateuch.
The question is not whether Florence Nightingale and
Miss Dix were cruel. I have said nothing about
John Howard, nothing about Abbott Lawrence.
I say nothing about people in this connection. The
question is: Is the Bible a cruel book? not: Was
Miss Nightingale a cruel woman? There have been
thousands and thousands of loving, tender and char-
itable Mohammedans. Mohammedan mothers love
their children as well as Christian mothers can.
Mohammedans have died in defence of the Koran—
died for the honor of an impostor. There were
millions of charitable people in India—millions in
Egypt—and I am not sure that the world has ever

192

produced people who loved one another better than
the Egyptians.

I think there are many things in the Old Testament
calculated to make man cruel. Mr. Talmage asks:
"What has been the effect upon your children? As
"they have become more and more fond of the
"Scriptures have they become more and more fond
"of tearing off the wings of flies and pinning grass-
"hoppers and robbing birds' nests?"

I do not believe that reading the bible would make
them tender toward flies or grasshoppers. According
to that book, God used to punish animals for the
crimes of their owners. He drowned the animals in
a flood. He visited cattle with disease. He bruised
them to death with hailstones—killed them by the
thousand. Will the reading of these things make
children kind to animals? So, the whole system of
sacrifices in the Old Testament is calculated to harden
the heart. The butchery of oxen and lambs, the killing
of doves, the perpetual destruction of life, the con-
tinual shedding of blood—these things, if they have
any tendency, tend only to harden the heart of child-
hood.

The Bible does not stop simply with the killing of
animals. The Jews were commanded to kill their

193

neighbors—not only the men, but the women; not
only the women, but the babes. In accordance with
the command of God, the Jews killed not only their
neighbors, but their own brothers; and according to
this book, which is the foundation, as Mr. Talmage
believes, of all mercy, men were commanded to kill
their wives because they differed with them on the
subject of religion.

Nowhere in the world can be found laws more un-
just and cruel than in the Old Testament.

Question. Mr. Talmage wants you to tell where
the cruelty of the Bible crops out in the lives of Chris-
tians?

Answer. In the first place, millions of Christians
have been persecutors. Did they get the idea of
persecution from the Bible? Will not every honest
man admit that the early Christians, by reading the
Old Testament, became convinced that it was not
only their privilege, but their duty, to destroy heathen
nations? Did they not, by reading the same book,
come to the conclusion that it was their solemn duty
to extirpate heresy and heretics? According to the
New Testament, nobody could be saved unless he
believed in the Lord Jesus Christ. The early Chris-

194

tians believed this dogma. They also believed that
they had a right to defend themselves and their
children from "heretics."

We all admit that a man has a right to defend his
children against the assaults of a would-be murderer,
and he has the right to carry this defence to the
extent of killing the assailant. If we have the right
to kill people who are simply trying to kill the bodies
of our children, of course we have the right to kill
them when they are endeavoring to assassinate, not
simply their bodies, but their souls. It was in this
way Christians reasoned. If the Testament is right,
their reasoning was correct. Whoever believes the
New Testament literally—whoever is satisfied that it
is absolutely the word of God, will become a perse-
cutor. All religious persecution has been, and is, in
exact harmony with the teachings of the Old and
New Testaments. Of course I mean with some of
the teachings. I admit that there are passages in
both the Old and New Testaments against persecu-
tion. These are passages quoted only in time of
peace. Others are repeated to feed the flames of
war.

I find, too, that reading the Bible and believing the
Bible do not prevent even ministers from telling false-

195

hoods about their opponents. I find that the Rev.
Mr. Talmage is willing even to slander the dead,—
that he is willing to stain the memory of a Christian,
and that he does not hesitate to give circulation
to what he knows to be untrue. Mr. Talmage
has himself, I believe, been the subject of a church
trial. How many of the Christian witnesses against
him, in his judgment, told the truth? Yet they were
all Bible readers and Bible believers. What effect, in
his judgment, did the reading of the Bible have upon
his enemies? Is he willing to admit that the testi-
mony of a Bible, reader and believer is true? Is he
willing to accept the testimony even of ministers?
—of his brother ministers? Did reading the Bible
make them bad people? Was it a belief in the Bible
that colored their testimony? Or, was it a belief in
the Bible that made Mr. Talmage deny the truth of
their statements?

Question. Mr. Talmage charges you with having
said that the Scriptures are a collection of polluted
writings?

Answer. I have never said such a thing. I have
said, and I still say, that there are passages in the
Bible unfit to be read—passages that never should

196

have been written—passages, whether inspired or
uninspired, that can by no possibility do any human
being any good. I have always admitted that there
are good passages in the Bible—many good, wise
and just laws—many things calculated to make men
better—many things calculated to make men worse.
I admit that the Bible is a mixture of good and bad,
of truth and falsehood, of history and fiction, of sense
and nonsense, of virtue and vice, of aspiration and
revenge, of liberty and tyranny.

I have never said anything against Solomon's
Song. I like it better than I do any book that pre-
cedes it, because it touches upon the human. In the
desert of murder, wars of extermination, polygamy,
concubinage and slavery, it is an oasis where the
trees grow, where the birds sing, and where human
love blossoms and fills the air with perfume. I do
not regard that book as obscene. There are many
things in it that are beautiful and tender, and it is
calculated to do good rather than harm.

Neither have I any objection to the book of Eccle-
siastes—except a few interpolations in it. That book
was written by a Freethinker, by a philosopher.
There is not the slightest mention of God in it, nor
of another state of existence. All portions in which

197

God is mentioned are interpolations. With some of
this book I agree heartily. I believe in the doctrine
of enjoying yourself, if you can, to-day. I think it
foolish to spend all your years in heaping up treas-
ures, not knowing but he who will spend them is to
be an idiot. I believe it is far better to be happy with
your wife and child now, than to be miserable here,
with angelic expectations in some other world.

Mr. Talmage is mistaken when he supposes that all
Bible believers have good homes, that all Bible readers
are kind in their families. As a matter of fact, nearly all
the wife-whippers of the United States are orthodox.
Nine-tenths of the people in the penitentiaries are
believers. Scotland is one of the most orthodox
countries in the world, and one of the most intem-
perate. Hundreds and hundreds of women are
arrested every year in Glasgow for drunkenness.
Visit the Christian homes in the manufacturing dis-
tricts of England. Talk with the beaters of children
and whippers of wives, and you will find them be-
lievers. Go into what is known as the "Black
"Country," and you will have an idea of the Chris-
tian civilization of England.

Let me tell you something about the "Black
"Country." There women work in iron; there women

198

do the work of men. Let me give you an instance:
A commission was appointed by Parliament to ex-
amine into the condition of the women in the "Black
"Country," and a report was made. In that report
I read the following:

"A superintendent of a brickyard where women
"were engaged in carrying bricks from the yard to
"the kiln, said to one of the women:

"'Eliza, you don't appear to be very uppish this
"morning.'"

"'Neither would you be very uppish, sir,' she re-
"plied, 'if you had had a child last night.'"

This gives you an idea of the Christian civilization
of England.

England and Ireland produce most of the prize-
fighters. The scientific burglar is a product of Great
Britain. There is not the great difference that Mr.
Talmage supposes, between the morality of Pekin
and of New York. I doubt if there is a city in
the world with more crime according to the population
than New York, unless it be London, or it may be
Dublin, or Brooklyn, or possibly Glasgow, where
a man too pious to read a newspaper published on
Sunday, stole millions from the poor.

I do not believe there is a country in the world

199

where there is more robbery than in Christian lands—
no country where more cashiers are defaulters, where
more presidents of banks take the money of depositors,
where there is more adulteration of food, where

fewer ounces make a pound, where fewer inches make
a yard, where there is more breach of trust, more
respectable larceny under the name of embezzlement,
or more slander circulated as gospel.

Question. Mr. Talmage insists that there are no
contradictions in the Bible—that it is a perfect har-
mony from Genesis to Revelation—a harmony as
perfect as any piece of music ever written by
Beethoven or Handel?

Answer. Of course, if God wrote it, the Bible
ought to be perfect. I do not see why a minister
should be so perfectly astonished to find that an
inspired book is consistent with itself throughout.
Yet the truth is, the Bible is infinitely inconsistent.

Compare the two systems—the system of Jehovah
and that of Jesus. In the Old Testament the doctrine
of "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" was
taught. In the New Testament, "forgive your
"enemies," and "pray for those who despitefully
"use you and persecute you." In the Old Testament

200

it is kill, burn, massacre, destroy; in the New forgive.
The two systems are inconsistent, and one is just
about as far wrong as the other. To live for and
thirst for revenge, to gloat over the agony of an
enemy, is one extreme; to "resist not evil" is the
other extreme; and both these extremes are equally
distant from the golden mean of justice.

The four gospels do not even agree as to the terms
of salvation. And yet, Mr. Talmage tells us that
there are four cardinal doctrines taught in the Bible—
the goodness of God, the fall of man, the sympathetic
and forgiving nature of the Savior, and two desti-
nies—one for believers and the other for unbelievers.
That is to say:

1. That God is good, holy and forgiving.

2. That man is a lost sinner.

3. That Christ is "all sympathetic," and ready to
take the whole world to his heart.

4. Heaven for believers and hell for unbelievers.

First. I admit that the Bible says that God is

good and holy. But this Bible also tells what God
did, and if God did what the Bible says he did, then I
insist that God is not good, and that he is not holy,
or forgiving. According to the Bible, this good
God believed in religious persecution; this good

201

God believed in extermination, in polygamy, in con-
cubinage, in human slavery; this good God com-
manded murder and massacre, and this good God
could only be mollified by the shedding of blood.
This good God wanted a butcher for a priest. This
good God wanted husbands to kill their wives—
wanted fathers and mothers to kill their children.
This good God persecuted animals on account of the
crimes of their owners. This good God killed the
common people because the king had displeased him.
This good God killed the babe even of the maid
behind the mill, in order that he might get even with
a king. This good God committed every possible
crime.

Second. The statement that man is a lost sinner
is not true. There are thousands and thousands of
magnificent Pagans—men ready to die for wife, or
child, or even for friend, and the history of Pagan
countries is filled with self-denying and heroic acts.
If man is a failure, the infinite God, if there be one,
is to blame. Is it possible that the God of Mr. Tal-
mage could not have made man a success? Accord-
ing to the Bible, his God made man knowing that in
about fifteen hundred years he would have to drown
all his descendants.

202

Why would a good God create a man that he
knew would be a sinner all his life, make hundreds
of thousands of his fellow-men unhappy, and who at
last would be doomed to an eternity of suffering?
Can such a God be good? How could a devil have
done worse?

Third. If God is infinitely good, is he not fully as
sympathetic as Christ? Do you have to employ
Christ to mollify a being of infinite mercy? Is Christ
any more willing to take to his heart the whole world
than his Father is? Personally, I have not the
slightest objection in the world to anybody believing
in an infinitely good and kind God—not the slightest
objection to any human being worshiping an infi-
nitely tender and merciful Christ—not the slightest
objection to people preaching about heaven, or about
the glories of the future state—not the slightest.

Fourth. I object to the doctrine of two destinies
for the human race. I object to the infamous false-
hood of eternal fire. And yet, Mr. Talmage is en-
deavoring to poison the imagination of men, women
and children with the doctrine of an eternal hell.
Here is what he preaches, taken from the "Constitu-
"tion of the Presbyterian Church of the United
"States:"

203

"By the decrees of God, for the manifestation of
"his glory, some men and angels are predestinated
"to everlasting life, and others foreordained to ever-
"lasting death."

That is the doctrine of Mr. Talmage. He wor-
ships a God who damns people "for the manifesta-
"tion of his glory,"—a God who made men, knowing
that they would be damned—a God who damns
babes simply to increase his reputation with the
angels. This is the God of Mr. Talmage. Such a
God I abhor, despise and execrate.

Question. What does Mr. Talmage think of man-
kind? What is his opinion of the "unconverted"?
How does he regard the great and glorious of the
earth, who have not been the victims of his particular
superstition? What does he think of some of the
best the earth has produced?

Answer. I will tell you how he looks upon all
such. Read this from his "Confession of Faith:"

"Our first parents, being seduced by the subtlety
"of the tempter, sinned in eating the forbidden fruit.
"By this sin, they fell from their original righteous-
"ness and communion with God, and so became
"dead in sin, and wholly defiled in all the faculties

204

"and parts of soul and body; and they being the
"root of all mankind, the guilt of this sin was
"imputed, and the same death in sin and corrupted
"nature conveyed to all their posterity. From this
"original corruption—whereby we are utterly indis-
"posed, disabled, and made opposite to all good,
"and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual
"transgressions."

This is Mr. Talmage's view of humanity.

Why did his God make a devil? Why did he
allow the devil to tempt Adam and Eve? Why did
he leave innocence and ignorance at the mercy of
subtlety and wickedness? Why did he put "the
"tree of the knowledge of good and evil" in the
garden? For what reason did he place temptation
in the way of his children? Was it kind, was it just,
was it noble, was it worthy of a good God? No
wonder Christ put into his prayer: "Lead us not
"into temptation."

At the time God told Adam and Eve not to eat,
why did he not tell them of the existence of Satan?
Why were they not put upon their guard against the
serpent? Why did not God make his appearance
just before the sin, instead of just after. Why did
he not play the role of a Savior instead of that of a

205

detective? After he found that Adam and Eve had
sinned—knowing as he did that they were then
totally corrupt—knowing that all their children
would be corrupt, knowing that in fifteen hundred
years he would have to drown millions of them, why
did he not allow Adam and Eve to perish in accord-
ance with natural law, then kill the devil, and make a
new pair?

When the flood came, why did he not drown all?
Why did he save for seed that which was "perfectly
"and thoroughly corrupt in all its parts and facul-
"ties"? If God had drowned Noah and his sons
and their families, he could have then made a new
pair, and peopled the world with men not "wholly
"defiled in all their faculties and parts of soul and
"body."

Jehovah learned nothing by experience. He per-
sisted in his original mistake. What would we think
of a man who finding that a field of wheat was
worthless, and that such wheat never could be
raised with profit, should burn all of the field with the
exception of a few sheaves, which he saved for seed?
Why save such seed? Why should God have pre-
served Noah, knowing that he was totally corrupt,
and that he would again fill the world with infamous

206

people—people incapable of a good action? He
must have known at that time, that by preserving
Noah, the Canaanites would be produced, that these
same Canaanites would have to be murdered, that
the babes in the cradles would have to be strangled.
Why did he produce them? He knew at that time,
that Egypt would result from the salvation of Noah,
that the Egyptians would have to be nearly de-
stroyed, that he would have to kill their first-born,
that he would have to visit even their cattle with
disease and hailstones. He knew also that the
Egyptians would oppress his chosen people for two
hundred and fifteen years, that they would upon the
back of toil inflict the lash. Why did he preserve
Noah? He should have drowned all, and started
with a new pair. He should have warned them
against the devil, and he might have succeeded, in
that way, in covering the world with gentlemen and
ladies, with real men and real women.

We know that most of the people now in the
world are not Christians. Most who have heard the
gospel of Christ have rejected it, and the Presby-
terian Church tells us what is to become of all these
people. This is the "glad tidings of great joy."
Let us see:

207

"All mankind, by their fall, lost communion with
"God, are under his wrath and curse, and so made
"liable to all the miseries of this life, to death itself,
"and to the pains of hell forever."

According to this good Presbyterian doctrine, all
that we suffer in this world, is the result of Adam's
fall. The babes of to-day suffer for the crime of the
first parents. Not only so; but God is angry at us
for what Adam did. We are under the wrath of an
infinite God, whose brows are corrugated with eternal
hatred.

Why should God hate us for being what we are
and necessarily must have been? A being that God
made—the devil—for whose work God is responsible,
according to the Bible wrought this woe. God of his
own free will must have made the devil. What did
he make him for? Was it necessary to have a devil
in heaven? God, having infinite power, can of
course destroy this devil to-day. Why does he per-
mit him to live? Why did he allow him to thwart his
plans? Why did he permit him to pollute the inno-
cence of Eden? Why does he allow him now to
wrest souls by the million from the redeeming hand
of Christ?

According to the Scriptures, the devil has always

208

been successful. He enjoys himself. He is called
"the prince of the power of the air." He has no
conscientious scruples. He has miraculous power.
All miraculous power must come of God, otherwise
it is simply in accordance with nature. If the devil
can work a miracle, it is only with the consent and
by the assistance of the Almighty. Is the God of
Mr. Talmage in partnership with the devil? Do
they divide profits?

We are also told by the Presbyterian Church—
I quote from their Confession of Faith—that "there
"is no sin so small but it deserves damnation.'' Yet
Mr. Talmage tells us that God is good, that he is filled
with mercy and loving-kindness. A child nine or ten
years of age commits a sin, and thereupon it deserves
eternal damnation. That is what Mr. Talmage calls,
not simply justice, but mercy; and the sympathetic
heart of Christ is not touched. The same being who
said: "Suffer little children to come unto me," tells
us that a child, for the smallest sin, deserves to be
eternally damned. The Presbyterian Church tells us
that infants, as well as adults, in order to be saved,
need redemption by the blood of Christ, and regen-
eration by the Holy Ghost.

I am charged with trying to take the consolation

209

of this doctrine from the world. I am a criminal
because I am endeavoring to convince the mother
that her child does not deserve eternal punishment.
I stand by the graves of those who "died in their
"sins," by the tombs of the "unregenerate," over the
ashes of men who have spent their lives working for
their wives and children, and over the sacred dust of
soldiers who died in defence of flag and country,
and I say to their friends—I say to the living who
loved them, I say to the men and women for whom
they worked, I say to the children whom they edu-
cated, I say to the country for which they died:
These fathers, these mothers, these wives, these
husbands, these soldiers are not in hell.

Question. Mr. Talmage insists that the Bible is
scientific, and that the real scientific man sees no
contradiction between revelation and science; that,
on the contrary, they are in harmony. What is your
understanding of this matter?

Answer. I do not believe the Bible to be a sci-
entific book. In fact, most of the ministers now admit
that it was not written to teach any science. They
admit that the first chapter of Genesis is not geo-
logically true. They admit that Joshua knew nothing

210

of science. They admit that four-footed birds did
not exist in the days of Moses. In fact, the only
way they can avoid the unscientific statements of the
Bible, is to assert that the writers simply used the
common language of their day, and used it, not with
the intention of teaching any scientific truth, but for
the purpose of teaching some moral truth. As a
matter of fact, we find that moral truths have been
taught in all parts of this world. They were taught
in India long before Moses lived; in Egypt long be-
fore Abraham was born; in China thousands of
years before the flood. They were taught by hundreds
and thousands and millions before the Garden of
Eden was planted.

It would be impossible to prove the truth of a
revelation simply because it contained moral truths.
If it taught immorality, it would be absolutely certain
that it was not a revelation from an infinitely good
being. If it taught morality, it would be no reason
for even suspecting that it had a divine origin. But
if the Bible had given us scientific truths; if the
ignorant Jews had given us the true theory of our
solar system; if from Moses we had learned the
nature of light and heat; if from Joshua we had
learned something of electricity; if the minor pro-

211

phets had given us the distances to other planets;
if the orbits of the stars had been marked by the
barbarians of that day, we might have admitted that
they must have been inspired. If they had said any-
thing in advance of their day; if they had plucked
from the night of ignorance one star of truth, we
might have admitted the claim of inspiration; but
the Scriptures did not rise above their source, did
not rise above their ignorant authors—above the
people who believed in wars of extermination, in
polygamy, in concubinage, in slavery, and who taught
these things in their "sacred Scriptures."

The greatest men in the scientific world have not
been, and are not, believers in the inspiration of the
Scriptures. There has been no greater astronomer
than Laplace. There is no greater name than
Humboldt. There is no living scientist who stands
higher than Charles Darwin. All the professors in
all the religious colleges in this country rolled into
one, would not equal Charles Darwin. All the cow-
ardly apologists for the cosmogony of Moses do not
amount to as much in the world of thought as Ernst
Haeckel. There is no orthodox scientist the equal
of Tyndall or Huxley. There is not one in this
country the equal of John Fiske. I insist, that the

212

foremost men to-day in the scientific world reject the
dogma of inspiration. They reject the science of the
Bible, and hold in utter contempt the astronomy of
Joshua, and the geology of Moses.

Mr. Talmage tells us "that Science is a boy and
"Revelation is a man." Of course, like the most he
says, it is substantially the other way. Revelation,
so-called, was the boy. Religion was the lullaby of
the cradle, the ghost-story told by the old woman,
Superstition. Science is the man. Science asks for
demonstration. Science impels us to investigation,
and to verify everything for ourselves. Most pro-
fessors of American colleges, if they were not afraid
of losing their places, if they did not know that
Christians were bad enough now to take the bread
from their mouths, would tell their students that the
Bible is not a scientific book.

I admit that I have said:

1. That the Bible is cruel.

2. That in many passages it is impure.

3. That it is contradictory.

4. That it is unscientific.

Let me now prove these propositions one by one.

First. The Bible is cruel.

I have opened it at random, and the very first

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chapter that has struck my eye is the sixth of First
Samuel. In the nineteenth verse of that chapter, I
find the following:

"And he smote the men of Bethshemesh, because
"they had looked into the ark of the Lord; even he
"smote of the people fifty thousand and three-score
"and ten men."

All this slaughter was because some people had
looked into a box that was carried upon a cart. Was
that cruel?

I find, also, in the twenty-fourth chapter of Second
Samuel, that David was moved by God to number
Israel and Judah. God put it into his heart to take
a census of his people, and thereupon David said to
Joab, the captain of his host:

"Go now through all the tribes of Israel, from
"Dan even to Beersheba, and number ye the people,
"that I may know the number of the people."

At the end of nine months and twenty days, Joab
gave the number of the people to the king, and
there were at that time, according to that census,
"eight hundred thousand valiant men that drew the
"sword," in Israel, and in Judah, "five hundred
"thousand men," making a total of thirteen hundred
thousand men of war. The moment this census was

214

taken, the wrath of the Lord waxed hot against
David, and thereupon he sent a seer, by the name of
Gad, to David, and asked him to choose whether he
would have seven years of famine, or fly three
months before his enemies, or have three days of
pestilence. David concluded that as God was so
merciful as to give him a choice, he would be more
merciful than man, and he chose the pestilence.

Now, it must be remembered that the sin of taking
the census had not been committed by the people,
but by David himself, inspired by God, yet the
people were to be punished for David's sin. So,,
when David chose the pestilence, God immediately
killed "seventy thousand men, from Dan even to
"Beersheba."

"And when the angel stretched out his hand upon
"Jerusalem to destroy it, the Lord repented him of
"the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed the
"people, It is enough; stay now thine hand."

Was this cruel?

Why did a God of infinite mercy destroy seventy
thousand men? Why did he fill his land with widows
and orphans, because King David had taken the cen-
sus? If he wanted to kill anybody, why did he not
kill David? I will tell you why. Because at that

215

time, the people were considered as the property of
the king. He killed the people precisely as he killed
the cattle. And yet, I am told that the Bible is not a
cruel book.

In the twenty-first chapter of Second Samuel, I
find that there were three years of famine in the days
of David, and that David inquired of the Lord the
reason of the famine; and the Lord told him that it
was because Saul had slain the Gibeonites. Why did
not God punish Saul instead of the people? And
David asked the Gibeonites how he should make
atonement, and the Gibeonites replied that they
wanted no silver nor gold, but they asked that seven
of the sons of Saul might be delivered unto them, so
that they could hang them before the Lord, in Gibeah.
And David agreed to the proposition, and thereupon
he delivered to the Gibeonites the two sons of Rizpah,
Saul's concubine, and the five sons of Michal, the
daughter of Saul, and the Gibeonites hanged all
seven of them together. And Rizpah, more tender
than them all, with a woman's heart of love kept
lonely vigil by the dead, "from the beginning of har-
"vest until water dropped upon them out of heaven,
"and suffered neither the birds of the air to rest upon
"them by day, nor the beast of the field by night."

216

I want to know if the following, from the fifteenth
chapter of First Samuel, is inspired:

"Thus saith the Lord of hosts; I remember that
"which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for
"him in the way when he came up from Egypt. Now
"go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that
"they have, and spare them not, but slay both man
"and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep,
"camel and ass."

We must remember that those he was commanded
to slay had done nothing to Israel. It was something
done by their forefathers, hundreds of years before;
and yet they are commanded to slay the women and
children and even the animals, and to spare none.

It seems that Saul only partially carried into exe-
cution this merciful command of Jehovah. He spared
the life of the king. He "utterly destroyed all the
"people with the edge of the sword," but he kept
alive the best of the sheep and oxen and of the fat-
lings and lambs. Then God spake unto Samuel and
told him that he was very sorry he had made Saul
king, because he had not killed all the animals, and
because he had spared Agag; and Samuel asked
Saul: "What meaneth this bleating of sheep in mine
"ears, and the lowing of the oxen which I hear?"

217

Are stories like this calculated to make soldiers
merciful?

So I read in the sixth chapter of Joshua, the fate
of the city of Jericho: "And they utterly destroyed
"all that was in the city, both man and woman,
"young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the
"edge of the sword. And they burnt the city with
"fire, and all that was therein." But we are told that
one family was saved by Joshua, out of the general
destruction: "And Joshua saved Rahab, the harlot,
"alive, and her father's household, and all that she
"had." Was this fearful destruction an act of
mercy?

It seems that they saved the money of their
victims: "the silver and gold and the vessels of brass
"and of iron they put into the treasury of the house
"of the Lord."

After all this pillage and carnage, it appears
that there was a suspicion in Joshua's mind that
somebody was keeping back a part of the treasure.
Search was made, and a man by the name of Achan
admitted that he had sinned against the Lord, that he
had seen a Babylonish garment among the spoils, and
two hundred shekels of silver and a wedge of gold of
fifty shekels' weight, and that he took them and hid

2l8

them in his tent. For this atrocious crime it seems
that the Lord denied any victories to the Jews until
they found out the wicked criminal. When they dis-
covered poor Achan, "they took him and his sons
"and his daughters, and his oxen and his asses and
"his sheep, and all that he had, and brought them unto
"the valley of Achor; and all Israel stoned him with
"stones and burned them with fire after they had
"stoned them with stones."

After Achan and his sons and his daughters and
his herds had been stoned and burned to death, we
are told that "the Lord turned from the fierceness of
"his anger."

And yet it is insisted that this God "is merciful,
"and that his loving-kindness is over all his works."
In the eighth chapter of this same book, the infi-
nite God, "creator of heaven and earth and all that is
"therein," told his general, Joshua, to lay an ambush
for a city—to "lie in wait against the city, even be-
"hind the city; go not very far from the city, but be
"ye all ready." He told him to make an attack and
then to run, as though he had been beaten, in order
that the inhabitants of the city might follow, and
thereupon his reserves that he had ambushed might
rush into the city and set it on fire. God Almighty

219

planned the battle. God himself laid the snare. The
whole programme was carried out. Joshua made
believe that he was beaten, and fled, and then the
soldiers in ambush rose out of their places, enter-
ed the city, and set it on fire. Then came the
slaughter. They "utterly destroyed all the inhabit-
"ants of Ai," men and maidens, women and babes,
sparing only their king till evening, when they
hanged him on a tree, then "took his carcase down
"from the tree and cast it at the entering of the
"gate, and raised thereon a great heap of stones
"which remaineth unto this day." After having
done all this, "Joshua built an altar unto the Lord
"God of Israel, and offered burnt offerings unto the
"Lord." I ask again, was this cruel?

Again I ask, was the treatment of the Gibeonites
cruel when they sought to make peace but were
denied, and cursed instead; and although permitted
to live, were yet made slaves? Read the mandate
consigning them to bondage: "Now therefore ye
"are cursed, and there shall none of you be freed
"from being bondmen and hewers of wood and
"drawers of water for the house of my God."

Is it possible, as recorded in the tenth chapter of
Joshua, that the Lord took part in these battles, and

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cast down great hail-stones from the battlements of
heaven upon the enemies of the Israelites, so that
"they were more who died with hail-stones, than
"they whom the children of Israel slew with the
"sword"?

Is it possible that a being of infinite power would
exercise it in that way instead of in the interest of
kindness and peace?

I find, also, in this same chapter, that Joshua took
Makkedah and smote it with the edge of the sword,
that he utterly destroyed all the souls that were
therein, that he allowed none to remain.

I find that he fought against Libnah, and smote
it with the edge of the sword, and utterly destroyed
all the souls that were therein, and allowed none to
remain, and did unto the king as he did unto the king
of Jericho.

I find that he also encamped against Lachish, and
that God gave him that city, and that he "smote it
"with the edge of the sword, and all the souls that
"were therein," sparing neither old nor young, help-
less women nor prattling babes.

He also vanquished Horam, King of Gezer, "and
"smote him and his people until he left him none
"remaining."

221

He encamped against the city of Eglon, and killed
every soul that was in it, at the edge of the sword,
just as he had done to Lachish and all the others.

He fought against Hebron, "and took it and
"smote it with the edge of the sword, and the king
"thereof,"—and it appears that several cities, their
number not named, were included in this slaughter,
for Hebron "and all the cities thereof and all the
"souls that were therein," were utterly destroyed.

He then waged war against Debir and took it, and
more unnumbered cities with it, and all the souls that
were therein shared the same horrible fate—he did
not leave a soul alive.

And this chapter of horrors concludes with this
song of victory:

"So Joshua smote all the country of the hills, and
"of the south, and of the vale, and of the springs,
"and all their kings: he left none remaining, but
"utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the Lord
"God of Israel commanded. And Joshua smote
"them from Kadeshbarnea even unto Gaza, and all the
"country of Goshen, even unto Gibeon. And all these
"kings and their land did Joshua take at one time,
"because the Lord God of Israel fought for Israel."
Was God, at that time, merciful?

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I find, also, in the twenty-first chapter that many
Icings met, with their armies, for the purpose of
overwhelming Israel, and the Lord said unto Joshua:
"Be not afraid because of them, for to-morrow about
"this time I will deliver them all slain before Israel.
"I will hough their horses and burn their chariots
"with fire." Were animals so treated by the com-
mand of a merciful God?

Joshua captured Razor, and smote all the souls
that were therein with the edge of the sword, there
was not one left to breathe; and he took all the
cities of all the kings that took up arms against him,
and utterly destroyed all the inhabitants thereof.
He took the cattle and spoils as prey unto himself,
and smote every man with the edge of the sword;
and not only so, but left not a human being to
breathe.

I find the following directions given to the Israel-
ites who were waging a war of conquest. They are
in the twentieth chapter of Deuteronomy, from the
tenth to the eighteenth verses:

"When thou comest nigh unto a city to fight
"against it, then proclaim peace unto it. And it
"shall be, if it make thee an answer of peace, and
"open unto thee, then it shall be that all the people

223

"that is found therein shall be tributaries unto thee,
"and they shall serve thee. And if it will make no
"peace with thee, but will war against thee, then
"thou shalt besiege it. And when the Lord thy
"God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt
"smite every male thereof with the edge of the
"sword; but the women, and the little ones, and
"the cattle, and all that is in the city, even the spoil
"thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou
"shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the
"Lord thy God hath given thee. Thus shalt thou
"do unto all the cities which are very far off from
"thee, which are not of the cities of these nations."
It will be seen from this that people could take
their choice between death and slavery, provided
these people lived a good ways from the Israelites.
Now, let us see how they were to treat the inhabit-
ants of the cities near to them:

"But of the cities of these people which the Lord
"thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou
"shalt save alive nothing that breatheth. But thou
"shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites,
"and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites,
"the Hivites and the Jebusites, as the Lord thy God
"hath commanded thee."

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It never occurred to this merciful God to send
missionaries to these people. He built them no
schoolhouses, taught them no alphabet, gave them
no book; they were not supplied even with a copy of
the Ten Commandments. He did not say "Reform,"
but "Kill;" not "Educate," but "Destroy." He gave
them no Bible, built them no church, sent them no
preachers. He knew when he made them that he
would have to have them murdered. When he
created them he knew that they were not fit to live;
and yet, this is the infinite God who is infinitely
merciful and loves his children better than an earthly
mother loves her babe.

In order to find just how merciful God is, read the
twenty-eighth chapter of Deuteronomy, and see what
he promises to do with people who do not keep all of
his commandments and all of his statutes. He curses
them in their basket and store, in the fruit of their
body, in the fruit of their land, in the increase of their
cattle and sheep. He curses them in the city and in
the field, in their coming in and their going out. He
curses them with pestilence, with consumption, with
fever, with inflammation, with extreme burning, with
sword, with blasting, with mildew. He tells them
that the heavens shall be as brass over their heads

225

and the earth as iron under their feet; that the rain
shall be powder and dust and shall come down on
them and destroy them; that they shall flee seven
ways before their enemies; that their carcasses shall
be meat for the fowls of the air, and the beasts of the
earth; that he will smite them with the botch of
Egypt, and with the scab, and with the itch, and with

madness and blindness and astonishment; that he
will make them grope at noonday; that they shall be
oppressed and spoiled evermore; that one shall be-
troth a wife and another shall have her; that they
shall build a house and not dwell in it; plant a vine-
yard and others shall eat the grapes; that their
sons and daughters shall be given to their enemies;
that he will make them mad for the sight of their
eyes; that he will smite them in the knees and in the
legs with a sore botch that cannot be healed, and
from the sole of the foot to the top of the head;
that they shall be a by-word among all nations; that
they shall sow much seed and gather but little; that
the locusts shall consume their crops; that they shall
plant vineyards and drink no wine,—that they shall
gather grapes, but worms shall eat them; that they
shall raise olives but have no oil; beget sons and
daughters, but they shall go into captivity; that all

226

the trees and fruit of the land shall be devoured by
locusts, and that all these curses shall pursue them
and overtake them, until they be destroyed; that they
shall be slaves to their enemies, and be constantly in
hunger and thirst and nakedness, and in want of all
things. And as though this were not enough, the
Lord tells them that he will bring a nation against
them swift as eagles, a nation fierce and savage, that
will show no mercy and no favor to old or young,
and leave them neither corn, nor wine, nor oil, nor
flocks, nor herds; and this nation shall besiege them
in their cities until they are reduced to the necessity
of eating the flesh of their own sons and daughters;
so that the men would eat their wives and their
children, and women eat their husbands and their
own sons and daughters, and their own babes.

All these curses God pronounced upon them if they
did not observe to do all the words of the law that
were written in his book.

This same merciful God threatened that he would
bring upon them all the diseases of Egypt—every
sickness and every plague; that he would scatter
them from one end of the earth to the other; that
they should find no rest; that their lives should hang
in perpetual doubt; that in the morning they would

227

say: Would God it were evening! and in the even-
ing, Would God it were morning! and that he would
finally take them back to Egypt where they should
be again sold for bondmen and bondwomen.

This curse, the foundation of the Anathema
maranatha; this curse, used by the pope of Rome to
prevent the spread of thought; this curse used even
by the Protestant Church; this curse born of barba-
rism and of infinite cruelty, is now said to have
issued from the lips of an infinitely merciful God. One
would suppose that Jehovah had gone insane; that
he had divided his kingdom like Lear, and from the
darkness of insanity had launched his curses upon a
world.

In order that there may be no doubt as to the
mercy of Jehovah, read the thirteenth chapter of
Deuteronomy:

"If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy
"son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or
"thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee
"secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods,
"which thou hast not known, thou nor thy fathers;
" * * * thou shalt not consent unto him, nor
"hearken unto him; neither shall thine eyes pity him,
"neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal

228

"him; but thou shalt surely kill him: thine hand
"shall be first upon him to put him to death, and
"afterwards the hand of all the people; and thou
"shalt stone him with stones that he die, because he
"hath sought to entice thee away from the Lord thy
"God."

This, according to Mr. Talmage, is a commandment
of the infinite God. According to him, God ordered
a man to murder his own son, his own wife, his own
brother, his own daughter, if they dared even to sug-
gest the worship of some other God than Jehovah.
For my part, it is impossible not to despise such
a God—a God not willing that one should worship
what he must. No one can control his admiration,
and if a savage at sunrise falls upon his knees and
offers homage to the great light of the East, he can-
not help it. If he worships the moon, he cannot help
it. If he worships fire, it is because he cannot control
his own spirit. A picture is beautiful to me in spite
of myself. A statue compels the applause of my
brain. The worship of the sun was an exceedingly
natural religion, and why should a man or woman be
destroyed for kneeling at the fireside of the world?

No wonder that this same God, in the very next
chapter of Deuteronomy to that quoted, says to his

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chosen people: "Ye shall not eat of anything that
"dieth of itself: thou shalt give it unto the stranger
"that is within thy gates, that he may eat it; or thou
"mayest sell it unto an alien: for thou art a holy
"people unto the Lord thy God."

What a mingling of heartlessness and thrift—the
religion of sword and trade!

In the seventh chapter of Deuteronomy, Jehovah
gives his own character. He tells the Israelites that
there are seven nations greater and mightier than
themselves, but that he will deliver them to his chosen
people, and that they shall smite them and utterly
destroy them; and having some fear that a drop of
pity might remain in the Jewish heart, he says:

"Thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor
"show mercy unto them. * * * Know therefore
"that the Lord thy God, he is God, the faithful God,
"which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that
"love him and keep his commandments to a thousand
"generations, and repayeth them that hate him to
"their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to
"him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face."
This is the description which the merciful, long-suffer-
ing Jehovah gives of himself.

So, he promises great prosperity to the Jews if

230

they will only obey his commandments, and says:
"And the Lord will take away from thee all sickness,
"and will put none of the evil diseases of Egypt
"upon thee, but will lay them upon all them that
"hate thee. And thou shalt consume all the people
"which the Lord thy God shall deliver thee; thine
"eye shall have no pity upon them."

Under the immediate government of Jehovah,
mercy was a crime. According to the law of God,
pity was weakness, tenderness was treason, kindness
was blasphemy, while hatred and massacre were
virtues.

In the second chapter of Deuteronomy we find
another account tending to prove that Jehovah is a
merciful God. We find that Sihon, king of Heshbon,
would not let the Hebrews pass by him, and the
reason given is, that "the Lord God hardened his
"spirit and made his heart obstinate, that he might
"deliver him into the hand" of the Hebrews. Sihon,
his heart having been hardened by God, came out
against the chosen people, and God delivered him to
them, and "they smote him, and his sons, and all his
"people, and took all his cities, and utterly destroyed
"the men and the women, and the little ones of
"every city: they left none to remain." And in this

231

same chapter this same God promises that the dread
and fear of his chosen people should be "upon all the
"nations that are under the whole heaven," and that
"they should "tremble and be in anguish because of"
the Hebrews.

Read the thirty-first chapter of Numbers, and see
how the Midianites were slain. You will find that
"the children of Israel took all the women of Midian
"captives, and their little ones," that they took "all
"their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods,"
that they slew all the males, and burnt all their cities
and castles with fire, that they brought the captives
and the prey and the spoil unto Moses and Eleazar
the priest; that Moses was wroth with the officers
of his host because they had saved all the women
alive, and thereupon this order was given: "Kill
"every male among the little ones, and kill every
"woman, * * * but all the women children
"keep alive for yourselves."

After this, God himself spake unto Moses, and
said: "Take the sum of the prey that was taken,
"both of man and of beast, thou and Eleazar the
"priest * * * and divide the prey into two
"parts, between those who went to war, and between
"all the congregation, and levy a tribute unto the

232

"Lord, one soul of five hundred of the persons,
"and the cattle; take it of their half and give it to
"the priest for an offering * * * and of the
"children of Israel's half, take one portion of fifty of
"the persons and the animals and give them unto
"the Levites. * * * And Moses and the priest
"did as the Lord had commanded." It seems that
they had taken six hundred and seventy-five thou-
sand sheep, seventy-two thousand beeves, sixty-one
thousand asses, and thirty-two thousand women
children and maidens. And it seems, by the fortieth
verse, that the Lord's tribute of the maidens was thirty-
two,—the rest were given to the soldiers and to the
congregation of the Lord.

Was anything more infamous ever recorded in the
annals of barbarism? And yet we are told that the
Bible is an inspired book, that it is not a cruel book,
and that Jehovah is a being of infinite mercy.

In the twenty-fifth chapter of Numbers we find
that the Israelites had joined themselves unto Baal-
Peor, and thereupon the anger of the Lord was
kindled against them, as usual. No being ever lost
his temper more frequently than this Jehovah. Upon
this particular occasion, "the Lord said unto Moses,
"Take all the heads of the people, and hang them

233

"up before the Lord against the sun, that the fierce
"anger of the Lord may be turned away from Israel."
And thereupon "Moses said unto the judges of Israel,
"Slay ye every one his men that were joined unto
"Baal-peor."

Just as soon as these people were killed, and their
heads hung up before the Lord against the sun, and
a horrible double murder of a too merciful Israelite
and a Midianitish woman, had been committed by
Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, "the plague was stayed
"from the children of Israel." Twenty-four thousand
had died. Thereupon, "the Lord spake unto Moses
"and said"—and it is a very merciful commandment
—"Vex the Midianites and smite them."

In the twenty-first chapter of Numbers is more evi-
dence that God is merciful and compassionate.

The children of Israel had become discouraged.
They had wandered so long in the desert that they
finally cried out: "Wherefore have ye brought us
"up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? There
"is no bread, there is no water, and our soul loatheth
"this light bread." Of course they were hungry and
thirsty. Who would not complain under similar cir-
cumstances? And yet, on account of this complaint,
the God of infinite tenderness and compassion sent

234

serpents among them, and these serpents bit them—
bit the cheeks of children, the breasts of maidens,
and the withered faces of age. Why would a God
do such an infamous thing? Why did he not, as the
leader of this people, his chosen children, feed them
better? Certainly an infinite God had the power
to satisfy their hunger and to quench their thirst.
He who overwhelmed a world with water, certainly
could have made a few brooks, cool and babbling,
to follow his chosen people through all their jour-
neying. He could have supplied them with miracu-
lous food.

How fortunate for the Jews that Jehovah was not
revengeful, that he was so slow to anger, so patient,
so easily pleased. What would they have done had
he been exacting, easily incensed, revengeful, cruel,
or blood-thirsty?

In the sixteenth chapter of Numbers, an account is
given of a rebellion. It seems that Korah, Dathan
and Abiram got tired of Moses and Aaron. They
thought the priests were taking a little too much
upon themselves. So Moses told them to have two
hundred and fifty of their men bring their censers
and put incense in them before the Lord, and stand
in the door of the tabernacle of the congregation

235

with Moses and Aaron. That being done, the Lord
appeared, and told Moses and Aaron to separate
themselves from the people, that he might consume
them all in a moment. Moses and Aaron, having a
little compassion, begged God not to kill everybody.
The people were then divided, and Dathan and
Abiram came out and stood in the door of their
tents with their wives and their sons and their little
children. And Moses said:

"Hereby ye shall know that the Lord hath sent
"me to do all these works; for I have not done them
"of my mine own mind. If these men die the
"common death of all men, or if they be visited
"after the common visitation of all men, then the
"Lord hath not sent me. But if the Lord make a
"new thing, and the earth open her mouth and
"swallow them up, with all that appertain unto them,
"and they go down quick into the pit, then ye shall
"understand that these men have provoked the
"Lord." The moment he ceased speaking, "the
"ground clave asunder that was under them; and
"the earth opened her mouth and swallowed them up,
"and their houses, and all the men that appertained
"unto Korah, and all their goods. They, and all that
"appertained to them went down alive into the pit,

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"and the earth closed upon them, and they perished
"from among the congregation."

This, according to Mr. Talmage, was the act of an
exceedingly merciful God, prompted by infinite kind-
ness, and moved by eternal pity. What would he
have done had he acted from motives of revenge?
What would he Jiave done had he been remorse-
lessly cruel and wicked?

In addition to those swallowed by the earth, the
two hundred and fifty men that offered the incense
were consumed by "a fire that came out from the
"Lord." And not only this, but the same merciful
Jehovah wished to consume all the people, and he
would have consumed them all, only that Moses pre-
vailed upon Aaron to take a censer and put fire
therein from off the altar of incense and go quickly
to the congregation and make an atonement for them.
He was not quick enough. The plague had already
begun; and before he could possibly get the censers
and incense among the people, fourteen thousand and
seven hundred had died of the plague. How many
more might have died, if Jehovah had not been so
slow to anger and so merciful and tender to his
children, we have no means of knowing.

In the thirteenth chapter of the same book of

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