Military and Naval Appropriations

Monday, May 30.

The House went into a Committee of the Whole on the bill providing appropriations for the Military and Naval Establishments; when,

On motion of Mr. W. Smith, the blank for the sum for the payment of the Army was filled with $273,666.

Mr. W. Smith proposed to fill up the next blank, for the subsistence of the officers of the Army, with $68,480.

Mr. Gallatin said, he was not ready to vote for this object. It had been usual to appropriate the subsistence of the officers and non-commissioned officers and privates all in one sum. He did not know what were the separate calculations.

Mr. W. Smith believed that it had been usual to put the two subjects together heretofore, but the Secretary of War had suggested the propriety of placing them under different heads. It was therefore done.

Mr. Gallatin said, when he objected to this plan of putting the two objects together, it was not merely on account of the arrangement, but because he did not know the amount calculated for the different descriptions. He knew, however, the rations were calculated at 30 cents. He would move to fill the blank with 20 cents, which would be two-thirds of the amount proposed. He would give his reasons for thus filling the blank. It would be found, by a communication from the Secretary of the Treasury at the commencement of the session, that, in the estimate for the Military Department, rations were charged 15 cents each, making the whole subsistence for 6,000 men $367,061; notwithstanding the nominal Army Establishment had been reduced one-half, the total amount of expense was estimated as high as before. The items upon which an increase had been made, were subsistence, hospital, ordnance, and quartermaster's departments, and protection of frontiers. It would be found that, in the second estimate of the Secretary, lately made, rations were estimated at 30 cents each, which made the whole amount of subsistence $437,762.

This difference in the estimate led the Committee of Ways and Means to an inquiry into the business, because, as the nominal establishment was decreased from 6,000 to 3,000 men, they had hoped there would have been some decrease of expense also. They received for answer, that rations could not be contracted at Detroit for less than 30 cents each; but though this, by the contract, was the price of rations at that post, they could not suppose they would cost the same at the other posts. It also appeared, from the information received from the Secretary of the Treasury, that the contract which had been made, was upon these terms—to furnish rations either at Detroit at 30 cents, or at Pittsburg at 11 cents, the place of delivery being at the option of Government. It would be seen that there was a difference betwixt those two prices of 19 cents; and he would ask whether any gentleman in that House believed that it would cost 19 cents per ration to transport them from Pittsburg to Detroit? He did not think that transportation would, on an average, cost 9 cents. The distance by land was not 200 miles; and water carriage would reduce it to 20.

Mr. W. Smith said, if agreeing to this motion would save the money, it would deserve attention; but, if they were to make the appropriation so small as to embarrass Government, it would be much worse than if they were to vote for a little too much. There would be a certain number of men who must be fed, and he thought they might rely upon the Administration's not giving more for rations than was necessary. But, if the sum voted was too small, what would be the consequence? The rations must be got, be the prices what they may; the men must be fed. Difficulties would arise if the fund appropriated should prove inadequate. He did not see that there would be any real saving by reducing the sum appropriated.

Mr. Bourne hoped the blank would be filled up with the sum proposed by the gentleman from South Carolina. It had been stated that rations might be purchased at Pittsburg for 11 cents, but they could not be bought for less than 30 at Detroit, and he thought they could not calculate upon any other price than that, as it was uncertain whether or not the contract would be fulfilled; and if it failed, and the Secretary of the Treasury was obliged to purchase at Detroit, if they calculated the rations at 20 cents only, he would not be able to purchase the necessary provisions for their men; but if, on the contrary, 30 cents were agreed to, there would be enough in any case, and if the ration could be bought for 20 cents, he did not fear that the money would be expended unnecessarily.

Mr. Venable said he should not feel himself justified in appropriating more than was necessary for the object before them; for, if they were not to be guided by a proper estimate, they might as well at once give an unlimited power on the Treasury. All the expenses could not be estimated to be made at Detroit. If one-third of our men were kept at Detroit, he should think it a large number. Why, then fix the price as if the whole Army was to be kept there? And, even in that case, 20 cents would be a large appropriation. Why, then, embarrass themselves by making a larger appropriation than was necessary? The Army would be extended on the whole frontier, and at some places rations would be bought cheaper than at Pittsburg.

Mr. Dayton (the Speaker) observed, that the gentleman from Pennsylvania (Mr. Gallatin) assumed as undeniable, and established as the foundation of his arguments and objections, what he did not only not admit, but absolutely denied, viz: that the rations of provisions would cost the United States more when delivered at Detroit, than at any other post. He believed there were two or three others at which the price would be higher than at Detroit, and mentioned Michilimacinac in particular. The gentlemen who were for reducing this item of appropriation, had referred to the contract which had been made some time since, and had, at the same time, acknowledged the extraordinary advance in the price of the necessaries of life, even in the interior of the country. The latter event, said Mr. D., was of a nature to excite much fear that the contract would be thrown back upon the United States, owing to the inability it would create in the individuals to fulfil it, and ought, therefore, to prompt Congress to guard against such an exigency, by a more ample provision than would otherwise have been requisite.

Mr. W. Smith said there was one fact which he forgot to mention. The Secretary of the Treasury informed the Committee of Ways and Means that the contractor would lose money by the contract to deliver the rations at 11 cents at Pittsburg, and it was possible, therefore, that it might not be fulfilled. Gentlemen say—why provide the money if it be not wanted? They seemed to mistake the business; the money was to be borrowed, and if not wanted, it would not be taken. No more would be expended because there was more than sufficient appropriated. There would be no money lying unemployed in the Treasury.

Mr. Gallatin believed the gentleman from South Carolina (Mr. Smith) would not deny that his information was correct. The contract was made to deliver the rations either at Pittsburg or Detroit, at the option of Government. To calculate the whole number of rations at 30 cents, was considering the whole Army at Detroit; and, though it be true, that there be one post more distant than Detroit, yet, the greater number were far nearer, and consequently, where provisions would be got cheaper. Therefore, considering the price at Detroit to be the general price, was allowing too much. This, he believed, would not be controverted.

Mr. Nicholas said, he should be glad to know what was the price of rations in the Atlantic States. One half of the Establishment would be upon the Eastern waters, and, therefore, the money necessary to be appropriated would depend, in some degree, upon the price of rations there. He thought 20 cents would be a full average price for the whole.

Mr. Havens said, that if they were to fix the price too high, it might produce a combination amongst the contractors to advance the price—as he believed there was a greater likelihood of combination than competition amongst them. He knew this was no reason why they should fix the price too low, but he thought it was a consideration which should lead them to vote for the proposition of the gentleman from Pennsylvania.

The original motion was put, and negatived, 34 to 31; and then Mr. Gallatin's, to fill the blank with $45,606, was put, and carried.

Mr. W. Smith moved to fill the next blank, for the subsistence of non-commissioned officers and privates, with $369,282, which was calculating the rations at 30 cents each.

The question was put, and negatived, 33 to 30.

Mr. Gallatin then moved to have the blank filled with $246,188, which was calculating the rations at 20 cents each.

Mr. Dayton hoped that the sum named would not be agreed to; if it were, he believed that the soldiers of the Army would not be subsisted. He was satisfied that gentlemen who proposed and advocated so scanty and inadequate sums had the same views as he had; but he was, nevertheless, convinced, that so far from promoting economy, they would eventually produce profusion.

Mr. Dayton concluded with saying, that he did not wish to appropriate lavishly, but his sole aim was to avoid any of those serious consequences which would inevitably flow from an ill-judged parsimony; and he should sit down and console himself under any event, with the reflection, that he had discharged his duty.

Mr. W. Smith moved to fill the blank with $360,000, which was carried, 34 to 31.

On motion of Mr. W. Smith, the blank for forage was filled with $16,592, and that for clothing was filled with $70,000, without debate. He proposed to fill the blank for providing horses for cavalry, with $7,500; when

Mr. Blount observed, that he thought it unnecessary to provide for the purchase of horses, when they had resolved upon reducing the number of troops.

Mr. Gallatin said he would just notice, that when the full number of horses was kept up, the appropriations for clothing were the same as now, and those for horses were less. The former estimate was $6,000 for horses; now, $7,500; so that the more they reduce the Army, the greater was the expense.

Mr. Macon believed, there were as many horses now in the service as would complete two companies, and they could not, with any propriety, calculate upon one-half dying. He moved to strike out the item altogether.

The motion was put and negatived, 33 to 26.

Mr. Havens said, he did not vote for striking out the item altogether, as he supposed some money would be wanted, but could not think so much as had been mentioned was necessary.

The motion for $7,509 was put and carried, 34 to 31.

On motion of Mr. W. Smith, the blank for bounty was filled with $10,000, and that for Hospital Department with $30,000, without objection. He also proposed to fill the blank for the Ordnance Department with $48,907, when

Mr. Gallatin said, that this sum was $11,000 more than the former estimate; $1,000 of which was owing to an increase of rent. The other additional item of $10,000 was for contingent expenses; but, as they had a distinct head for contingent expenses he thought that the contingencies would be best, all of them, placed under that head. He therefore moved to have the blank filled with $38,907.

Mr. Williams proposed $40,000, which was carried.

Mr. W. Smith proposed to fill the blank for the Indian Department with $70,000.

Mr. Gallatin said, it would be recollected that they had already made two appropriations under this head; the one for establishing trading-houses with the Indian tribes, the other for carrying into effect several treaties. On inquiry what reason there was for this appropriation, he could only find one, viz: that a treaty was expected to be held in Georgia, at which 3,000 Indians were to be present. He had supposed this expense was to have been borne by Georgia, but it was alleged that a part of it would fall on the United States.

The motion was put and negatived, 33 to 26; when

Mr. W. Smith proposed $60,000. He would mention, that the Secretary of War had been called upon to give a reason why so large a sum should be appropriated; when they were told of the treaty which the gentleman from Pennsylvania had mentioned, and that it would be necessary to have a large store for the purpose of feeding and clothing the Indians who attended it. The motion was then put and carried, 31 to 28.

Mr. W. Smith moved to fill the blank for the Quartermaster's Department with $250,000.

Mr. Gallatin said, it would be remembered that in the estimate at the opening of the session, this item was calculated at $200,000. The reason given for this advance, was, that the expense of removing stores, ordnance, &c., to new posts, would be very considerable; but, it would be recollected, that $200,000 only were appropriated for that purpose in the time of war, when the Army was liable to be removed very often. The present estimate was for a Peace Establishment, when their men, once removed to the new posts, would be stationed; and the appropriation, instead of for 6,000 men, was now only for 3,000. He moved to insert $200,000, instead of $250,000.

Mr. Blount said, he supposed the taking possession of the posts was contemplated when the first estimate was made. It was then known the British had stipulated to surrender them on the 1st of June.

Mr. W. Smith said, it was not certain when the first estimate was made, whether that House would have ratified the treaty; and, if not ratified, the posts would not have been got. The increased calculation was owing to the expense in transporting ordnance, stores, &c., to the posts.

Mr. Isaac Smith said, it would require more cannon for one of those posts, than were required by all the Army.

Mr. Blount said, they had had sufficient proof to lead them to believe, that the President did not think that House had the power mentioned by the gentleman from South Carolina, and, therefore, he doubted not but the first estimate was made with reference to the expense of taking possession of the posts.

The motion for $250,000 was put and negatived, 31 to 26; when $200,000 was put and carried.

Mr. W. Smith, moved to fill the blank for contingencies of the War Department with $30,000; which was carried without opposition. He then proposed to fill the blank for the defence and protection of the frontiers with $150,000.

Mr. Gallatin said, he certainly wished the frontier to be protected, but he could not think so large a sum necessary for that purpose. The sum last year appropriated was $130,000; and now we had peace with the Indians, which was secured not only by a treaty with them, but by treaties with Great Britain and Spain, he could not account for an increased expense.

The motion for $150,000 was put and negatived; $130,000 was then proposed and carried, 34 to 33.

Mr. W. Smith proposed to fill the next blank, for the completion of the fortifications, &c., at West Point, with $20,000.

Mr. Nicholas inquired if there was any law on this head?

Mr. W. Smith said, there was an act to authorize a provision for this purpose, but that act had expired. He believed, however, it might properly come in there. This expense, he was told, was necessary to make the posts tenable, and that if no money was expended, the fortifications would be lost. He believed this item might properly be considered as a part of the Military Establishment.

Mr. Nicholas said, he did not object to the propriety of the expense, but to the manner of introducing it. It would apply to New York as well as West Point. He considered the admission of West Point as the admission of a principle to which all the surplus appropriations might be applied. All the fortifications, he said, were in the power of the Executive; but, as they had had a committee appointed on the business, whose report they had considered, he thought they should act consistently. He therefore moved to strike out the clause.

Mr. Williams hoped this item would not be struck out, and that the President would be enabled to extend aid to the fortifications at New York; if not, the works would go to decay.

Mr. Van Cortlandt said, that fortifications ought to be attended to, and that he should vote for them.

Mr. Giles hoped the motion would prevail. There had been a committee most of the session, to consider the subject of fortifications. If these fortifications stood in need of repair, the President should have given the information to that committee. He thought the item improper in the present bill.

Mr. Gallatin believed the gentlemen from Virginia were mistaken. The committee which had been appointed was to consider the fortifications of our harbors only. The works at West Point were of a different description, and the estimate included not only the completing of the fortifications, but the building and repairs of barracks and stores which had been destroyed. The present item could not extend to fortifications in general, as had been apprehended; for, though the Secretary of the department does not confine the money appropriated to one object, to that particular purpose, yet, he cannot expend it on any object which was not contained in the act of appropriation. He moved to add, "magazines, store-houses, and barracks." Agreed to, and also the sum.

Mr. W. Smith then moved to fill the blank for the fortification of forts and harbors with $50,000.

Mr. Gallatin said, this item he should move to strike out. A committee had been appointed, and had reported on this subject, and that it was not necessary to attend to it at present, as there was a surplus of $23,000 unexpended. If they were to agree to the present sum, it would be appropriating an additional sum of $50,000 for the same object; he hoped, therefore, that it would be struck out.

Mr. W. Lyman was in favor of striking it out.

Mr. Williams hoped it would be agreed to, on the ground of the necessity of some attention being paid to the works at New York.

Mr. Dayton was in favor of striking out this item altogether, as there really was not money to spare for objects not essential. If any particular harbor had been, or could be mentioned, the committee might better be enabled to judge whether it would be fit, at this time, pressed as they were for resources, to make an appropriation for fortifying it, and how much. But, as he knew of none, and believed there were no such, he should certainly be opposed to appropriating a single shilling for this purpose. He meant not to say, that there were not ports in the United States which might be advantageously fortified, but only, that this country was not yet in a situation to justify their encountering such an expense, especially as it did not appear to be immediately necessary.

The motion for striking out was put, and carried.

Mr. W. Smith moved to fill the blank for the pay of officers, seamen, and marines, with $113,025.

Mr. Nicholas hoped this item would be struck out. It was certainly an expense for which there was no occasion. He did not wish to see men raised when they could be of no service. The frigates, he said, could not be fit for service before the next session. He hoped, therefore, no opposition would be made to the striking out of the clause.

Mr. W. Smith said, they had authorized by law the building of three frigates, and it was wished that they should go into service the present year. If the whole sum was not appropriated, there would certainly be a necessity for a part of it.

Mr. Nicholas moved to strike out the item as it stood, and insert, "the pay of the captains of three frigates."

Mr. Macon believed these were the only officers at present appointed.

Mr. Havens wished gentlemen to say why these captains should be paid at all. He believed that building of ships was not their business, and that these places were at present mere sinecures. He should therefore vote against the amendment.

Mr. W. Smith said, it would be necessary to add subsistence as well as pay of three captains, and moved to fill the blank with five thousand dollars; which, after a few observations, was agreed to.

On motion of Mr. W. Smith, the blank for military pensions was filled, without opposition, with $114,259.

The committee then rose and the House entered upon the consideration of the amendments which had been made, when all were agree to, except that relative to the subsistence of the non-commissioned officers and privates.